Mister701 wrote:... I suppose a guy could carry his gas in a hefty bag if he needed to but I doubt any of us would do it right?

Mister701, thanks for the static lesson. Very good info. I liked the example of the doorknobs up on the North Slope. BTW...A little ironic that you live in Sparks NV. Yes, I can just picture that Avgas swirling around inside that plastic hand pump and building static until it arched and blew itself apart.

The rest of the story? The guy was a doctor. Drove to his own office for medical help. Walks in door. His own staff did not recognize him due to blowup appearance. ( picture Wilde Coyote after disaster ). Patched him up.

As for the Hefty bag comment....( long story short here ) A guy liked to fill Hefty bags with Oxy-Acetylene mixture and then heat up a 3 ft long welding rod until red hot. Poke the bag with it and Ka-pop! Started getting brave. Decided to tie up 9 bags over fire pit, light fire, and run. Static spark from bags. KA-BLEWY! They found him mostly naked 60 ft away and partial deaf. Eugene Oregon area. Plenty damp.

I was opening a several envelops of Jeppesen revisions in inside the airplane. The hangar was dimly lit. Blue sparks lit up each envelop as I pulled open the adhesive flap on the envelop. Looked kind of cool, but a good example of static.

Plastic? Yes! But approved plastic. I'll gladly pay $20 for an approved gas can rather than an old plastic milk container to get the lawn mower running.

Thanks to everybody participating in this discussion. That's why we are BCP!

It's my understanding that it is safer to insert the dispensing nozzle further into the receiving vessel so that the dispensing fuel stream doesn't travel as far through the surrounding air. (As opposed to holding the dispensing nozzle high above the liquid level in the receiving vessel, therefore causing the dispensing fuel stream to travel further through the surrounding air.) (This is in addition to making sure the nozzle contacts the rim of the receiving vessel.) Mister701??

A1Skinner wrote:If you have your container sitting on the wing while transferring fuel, isn't it geounded to the wing, therefore giving it a reasonable path to equalize? I'm asking out of honesty, but it seems to make sense to me.

I really don't think thats grounding. You have rubber tires, right? No ground....More like bonding. Its bonded to the wing and therefore the airplane. And with that it should equal out all those damn little electrons...or neutrons.....or protons.....or what ever those little fellers are...but unless you have a ground wire going from your plane to mother earth, you are not grounded.....
Mister701 correct me if I'm wrong please. How long were you on the slope?

A1Skinner wrote:If you have your container sitting on the wing while transferring fuel, isn't it geounded to the wing, therefore giving it a reasonable path to equalize? I'm asking out of honesty, but it seems to make sense to me.

So lets say you drive up to the pump, take your steel can out of the truck, set it on the ground and fuel it. So far so good. Then you set it back in the truck and drive to the airport. The fuel sloshes around in the tank and a small charge builds in the fuel or on the can. If you let it sit there in the bed of the truck, after awhile everything returns to neutral. Or, you get to the airport, take the can out of the back and sit it briefly on the ground. Go get the ladder. Come back, pick up the can and lift it up onto the wing. You're looking good. Everything is fine. Then you lift the can up off the wing and pour gas from the can into the tank filler. Not so good here. You can develop a charge in the flowing fuel. Now I know it only happens 1 time out of every 10 million fueling events but it does happen. It used to happen all the time in refineries until some really smart guys began to figure out that fuel or crude oil carries a charge as it is moving through the piping. Inside of a great big crude tank on the slope, where the 18" line comes out of the gas separation building and enters the side of the tank, there is a chain welded to that filler line that hangs down into the crude. All the way to the bottom. The industry has developed these mitigating techniques to eliminate these flash fires. Very rare to get an arc here but this is exactly how it happens. The tanks themselves are fully charged with methane to exclude oxygen. So you have the fuel moving past the Jerry Can sides and through the filler neck. The fuel gives up electrons to the can body and charges it up, then when the angle is right or your poor little old arms get tired you lower the can and the filler neck makes contact with the body of airplane. Now a very small but very HOT spark occurs. If the right mixture of air and vapor (Called Lower Explosive Level or LEL) is present the whole thing blows up. It might just flash there at the opening but be unable to enter the aircraft tank because there is not enough oxygen in there. Most flash fires happen when fueling empty tanks. What we need to do is make a low resistance path from the gas can to the airplane before the filler spout touches the filler neck at the surface of the wing. Your body MAY be conductive enough (low resistance) to allow equalization while you do that. I won't stand behind that 100% for you but it works for me. Keep your bare hands on the gas can and your full naked elbow on the wing surface. So now, with our steel (or plastic) Jerry Can we pick it up off the wing and make contact (if you can) between the filler neck and the can spout before the fuel begins to flow. That's the ticket see. Equalize while moving fuel. Keep everything in direct contact while fuel is flowing. It makes absolutely no difference wether the can is made of steel or plastic, it's still going to charge up. The good thing about the DOT approved plastic Jerry cans is that they are made out of plastics that are really stable and don't take on or give up orphaned electrons readily. They are engineered that way. Have you noticed with these new cans that you can't get the damn gas out of them without the filler neck pushed in to the lawn mower? Yup, not silly. Engineered. Also in the thread that Zzz referenced above there is lots of talk about the funnel creating additional hazard. I can see that.........use approved methods and materials and you eliminate the hazard. A filter funnel is a great thing, just make sure that it is in solid contact with the airplane and the gas can spout is in solid contact with it. No sweat. I hope all this makes good sense. It's late.

roamak wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:If you have your container sitting on the wing while transferring fuel, isn't it geounded to the wing, therefore giving it a reasonable path to equalize? I'm asking out of honesty, but it seems to make sense to me.

I really don't think thats grounding. You have rubber tires, right? No ground....More like bonding. Its bonded to the wing and therefore the airplane. And with that it should equal out all those damn little electrons...or neutrons.....or protons.....or what ever those little fellers are...but unless you have a ground wire going from your plane to mother earth, you are not grounded.....
Mister701 correct me if I'm wrong please. How long were you on the slope?

We just want the gas can and the airplane at the same potential. The airplane is always carrying a little charge because air is moving across it surfaces all the time. Really I'm not kidding. Just keep everything at the same potential.

Here's an example.. The helicopter has this bed affair on the skids with a safety belt to hold the lineman on it and keep him from falling off or blowing away. The helicopter carefully flies up to the Million Volt North South DC line traversing the country. The helicopter is not grounded. He's flying for crying out loud. Now the lineman takes a clip and wire lead from the helicopter and snaps it onto the million volt line. Everything is now at equal potential. If there's a arc there it's because the chopper has developed a charge while thrashing the shit out of the air and it discharges to the power line. So with the chopper and the high line equalized he crawls out there and hooks up this little sled to the wire and gets on it. He then unhooks the lead back to the chopper and goes about his work sliding along a power line charged with a million volts DC. Kool eh? He doesn't feel a thing. He's at equal potential with the power line.

I was on the slope 10 years +/-

Mister701 wrote:Here's an example.. The helicopter has this bed affair on the skids with a safety belt to hold the lineman on it and keep him from falling off or blowing away. The helicopter carefully flies up to the Million Volt North South DC line traversing the country. The helicopter is not grounded. He's flying for crying out loud. Now the lineman takes a clip and wire lead from the helicopter and snaps it onto the million volt line. Everything is now at equal potential. If there's a arc there it's because the chopper has developed a charge while thrashing the shit out of the air and it discharges to the power line. So with the chopper and the high line equalized he crawls out there and hooks up this little sled to the wire and gets on it. He then unhooks the lead back to the chopper and goes about his work sliding along a power line charged with a million volts DC. Kool eh? He doesn't feel a thing. He's at equal potential with the power line.

Here's a video of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_NEAEGeFIw

That's a hell of an arc. Especially when the chopper pulls away. I'm thinking that the Helicopter is acting like a big capacitor and charging up to the half million volts or whatever that line is. I think I'd be scared to do that job....and I ain't askeert o' nothin'.

That flying up to and then hovering near a high voltage line while other's jump onto the line, really is so frigging impressive. I have to wonder about the relationship between the pilot and the line guys, it has to be good right? What fine team work to make that happen, not just once but day after day I'm guessing. I hope they make a ton of money doing it, they earn every cent.

Voltage, smoltage. I'm impressed with the high hover right by the wire, while maintaining position through a fairly significant weight, CG, power, anti-torque change. I'm sure you get very comfortable with this. I'd just go through several sets of drawers getting there.

Relative to the OP's topic, that was a big arc.

Brett

UH-60andC-180 wrote:Voltage, smoltage. I'm impressed with the high hover right by the wire, while maintaining position through a fairly significant weight, CG, power, anti-torque change. I'm sure you get very comfortable with this. I'd just go through several sets of drawers getting there.

Relative to the OP's topic, that was a big arc.

Brett

Yeah, and in white suits too!

UH-60andC-180 wrote:Voltage, smoltage. I'm impressed with the high hover right by the wire, while maintaining position through a fairly significant weight, CG, power, anti-torque change. I'm sure you get very comfortable with this. I'd just go through several sets of drawers getting there.

Relative to the OP's topic, that was a big arc.

Brett

OGE hover in a 500? He was probably full left pedal the whole time. Super impressive!

I'm in the process of setting up a fueling rig. I just bought a 12v dc pump approved for gasoline and two DOT approved 55 gallon fuel drums (lined). I also bought two 10 ft grounding straps which have an eylet on one end for a bolt and a clamp on the other end that looks like the clamps you see at most SS avgas fueling stations. Do I need to grind a spot on my drums and bolt/weld the strap to it or can I connect the strap via another clamp over the paint? Also, my plan is to rachet strap a drum to a dolly to wheel it around the hangar. This way the drum will always be in contact with the ground while fueling. If the drum is on the ground, I have a grounding strap connecting the drum to the a/c exhaust pipe, and I try to keep the nozzle in contact with the rim of the gas tank am I good? Any other suggestions? I'm going to be saving $2.79/gallon compared to 100LL by hauling my own 91 octane ethanol free mogas.

BladeRunner wrote:

Mister701 wrote:... I suppose a guy could carry his gas in a hefty bag if he needed to but I doubt any of us would do it right?

KA-BLEWY! They found him mostly naked 60 ft away and partially dead. Eugene Oregon area.

Eugene eh? Isn't that the intellectual capitol of Orygun? Was he a Duck or a Beaver? I wonder if he was a duck or a beaver? Good story.

Mister701 wrote:

roamak wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:If you have your container sitting on the wing while transferring fuel, isn't it geounded to the wing, therefore giving it a reasonable path to equalize? I'm asking out of honesty, but it seems to make sense to me.

I really don't think thats grounding. You have rubber tires, right? No ground....More like bonding. Its bonded to the wing and therefore the airplane. And with that it should equal out all those damn little electrons...or neutrons.....or protons.....or what ever those little fellers are...but unless you have a ground wire going from your plane to mother earth, you are not grounded.....
Mister701 correct me if I'm wrong please. How long were you on the slope?

We just want the gas can and the airplane at the same potential. The airplane is always carrying a little charge because air is moving across it surfaces all the time. Really I'm not kidding. Just keep everything at the same potential.

Here's an example.. The helicopter has this bed affair on the skids with a safety belt to hold the lineman on it and keep him from falling off or blowing away. The helicopter carefully flies up to the Million Volt North South DC line traversing the country. The helicopter is not grounded. He's flying for crying out loud. Now the lineman takes a clip and wire lead from the helicopter and snaps it onto the million volt line. Everything is now at equal potential. If there's a arc there it's because the chopper has developed a charge while thrashing the shit out of the air and it discharges to the power line. So with the chopper and the high line equalized he crawls out there and hooks up this little sled to the wire and gets on it. He then unhooks the lead back to the chopper and goes about his work sliding along a power line charged with a million volts DC. Kool eh? He doesn't feel a thing. He's at equal potential with the power line.

I was on the slope 10 years +/-

So, I ise a plastic jerry can. Fill it up on the ground. Then lift it onto the wing and tip it up and dump it into the tank. The whole time, the plastic can is sitting on the wing. So am I good?
How does it work at a gas station, is the hose grounded? Most vehicles are on rubber tires and not grounded at all...

Something like that A1. Set it up on the wing and give it a a minute or so, then make sure the can spout is in contact with the airplane when the gas flows. At the gas pump the spout contacts the filler neck on the tank before the fuel flows. So the vehicle is grounded by the hose. If you read through the Petroleum Equipment Institute materials I referenced above, almost all incidents result from sticking the hose in the filler neck then getting back in the car to stay warm or put some make-up on, then getting out, sliding across the seat, then touching the hose at the vehicle's tank inlet. The vehicle is grounded by the spout but the fueler (something like 75-80% women) is all charged up by her excursion to the car and back. As the tank is filling, vapors are pouring out of the tank as they are displaced by incoming fluid. They mix with air and make for an explosive mix. All it takes is the tiniest spark to set it off you know? You don't need a big one.

Ok. Thanks for the lesson. It sure don't take a very big spark when the LELs are in the right range. And to think gas is fairly stable compared to a lot of stuff that some of us use daily...

Bender wrote: Do I need to grind a spot on my drums and bolt/weld the strap to it or can I connect the strap via another clamp over the paint?

Don't be welding on your brand new lined drums! How do you plan to bolt your ground lead to the drum? Pictures? If you have an approved 12VDC pump I'm thinking there's a place to attach a ground lead to the pump, and the pump screws into the drum head?

The dolly question confuses me.

Here's my rig:

A couple of people have commented on tires - Rubber tires have a lot of carbon in them and will conduct a static charge away from your car to the ground.

And if you look at some transport/corporate size aircraft you will see a static wick near the landing gear axle that just grazes the tarmac. Always there doing it job. I think I'd attach one to my axle if I was on the North Slope in a Cessna for sure.


I'll just leave this here: