Backcountry Pilot • GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

robw56 wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Hers a video that can help promote serious thought on DA



I'm not sure how much (if any) DA actually played a factor here. That airport is Mears (3W5) in northern Washington, 2600ft runway at 267' MSL. DA couldn't have been that high... You'd think a turbocharged bonanza wouldn't have had much of a problem with it.


This one had nothing to do with DA but rather a very poorly flown departure. He left his gear down and then went too fast, the faster you go in a Bonanza with the gear down the worse the climb rate. All he had to do was pull back on the yoke but he never did.
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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

A1Skinner wrote:
I kind of agree. To me it didn't look like he held it in ground effect, just tried to climb once air born. I think this is an excellent portrayal of why building airspeed in ground effect is so important.



Not in a Bonanza if you leave the gear down. Best rate gear down will be about 65 knots plus or minus a little for weight. Put the gear up and it's about 95 knots. This guy left the gear down and tried to accelerate. The faster you go in that situation the worse the performance.
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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

Bonanza Man wrote:This one had nothing to do with DA but rather a very poorly flown departure. He left his gear down and then went too fast, the faster you go in a Bonanza with the gear down the worse the climb rate. All he had to do was pull back on the yoke but he never did.
Another case of not really knowing your airplane's capabilities in different scenarios.

Soy followed up:
"Good point. There are no universal rules. Everything has exceptions. Of course if you are taking off into descending terrain, you can be just a little less cautious - but as Cary points out - you gotta out climb the terrain. The 70% rule will get you 50 feet off the airport - after that you need to use your noodle - and you better have thought about that before you start your takeoff roll."

When I left La Garita, I had exactly these issues to consider. I do know my airplane pretty well, after 11 years and 600 hours of flying her. As anyone who has camped near me, at Marble, La Garita, Oshkosh, etc., knows, I tend to "glamp" (pic from La Garita below) which means that although I may not be at gross, I'm running heavy. La Garita is roughly 3600' long, but 2800' for us small tire folks. Density altitude was about 10,000'. So I walked the runway and determined where halfway on the 2800' part was. Downhill, the terrain opens into the San Luis Valley; uphill, the terrain rises, and my airplane will climb, but not well and not at a rate that I really wanted to take off uphill. So although the wind was blowing pretty hard (windsock straight out), quartering from the southwest, I elected to take off downwind and downhill. I was airborne by the halfway mark, but I stayed within maybe 5' of the terrain until I had 90 mph on the ASI, which was just about at the end of the runway, then climbed out at about 200-250 fpm.

Image

So knowing the airplane, keeping weight reasonable, "using your noodle", all play a part in a safe departure from a high density altitude airstrip.

Cary
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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

I made the same choice at La Garita - wasn't perfect - and I never like a 15mph tailwind. The bigger concern looking back was the gusting conditions. I thought it was pretty calm when I taxied down the departure end - but the winds kicked up as soon as I rolled. I was off okay though with a bounce or two and had clear lower terrain.

My rotation speed is 50mph - and Vx is 55 in my cub. I only need 35mph to hit my 70% point - which is still mushing but flying. My plane stalls in the high 20s. Key is to stay in low ground effect as long as you can to accelerate with less parasitic drag.

If I had known that tailwind was as constant and as high as it was, I would have probably taken the uphill upwind. I thought it was more in the 5-8 mph range.

It is still possible to make mistakes. Hopefully our rules give us enough margin to not hurt anybody.

Coming home from Montana, I was in Thermopolis, WY at 1:00 in the afternoon - making a similar choice. gusting 15-25mph tailwind down hill or choose the uphill-upwind into rising terrain. I taxied out for the downhill-downwind and changed my mind to take the upwind. Better choice.
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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

Yeah, it was gusty--my take off probably looked pretty screwy to anyone watching from the ground. But I've had the experience of the terrain out-climbing my airplane, and I just didn't like the possibility. Other than the gusts, I think I made the better choice this time--who knows what the next situation will bring?

Side note: I really like that place. I can't get Marilyn to fly, but I've started working on her to drive there. Great place to just veg! :)

Cary
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Re: GO / NO-GO limit for density altitude

Great topic. Topics like this are why I read this board. Thanks.
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