Hello all,

I'd like to get your thoughts on how I can improve my grass runway operations. I'm a low time pilot (currently 75 hours), so I'd love to hear what I can do differently to improve landings from more experienced pilots. I realize I'm pretty high on final but that's because I want to stay above the trees in case of an engine out. All comments are welcome. Please see my landing in the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYDq37JPGU&feature=youtu.be

Aiming point might have been closer given the absence of a hedge or fence.

You seem to have relaxed on the control column on touchdown and I didn't hear the stall warner.

Keeping the stick back and letting the nosewheel down as the aircraft slows by gravity will be easier on the nosewheel, and the wing producing induced drag is also easier on the brakes - which can be applied when the aircraft has slowed down further.

Otherwise looked fine.

I'll keep that in mind. I definitely need to get more comfortable with the airplane getting close to stall.

Slow flying over a long runway in low ground effect (airplane hover taxi) will help you get comfortable with a slower approach safely. E-mail me at [email protected] and I will return email an attachment of my e-book, "Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques." It covers many low altitude techniques I use with crop dusting, pipeline, and bush students.

Be sure you separate aileron control from rudder control on final. You will have to fight the bungee a bit, but coordinated turns on final are a poor way to maintain runway alignment. Rudder will make much finer longitudinal alignment adjustments. Aileron keeps the wing level or banked into a crosswind enough to manage drift. It is like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time.

A pedal to the floor slip helps you be high and still touch down short.

(For the record, I have not landed a Piper in 40 years)

looked fine to me, just a little fast since it looked like one or two hundred feet were burned up in the flair. i'm always working on the same thing and found what contactflying suggests is pretty a pretty helpful excersize.. it's all about running out of energy at the right time.

I thought it looked like a great landing - You brought it in with a little speed, but did a good job bleeding it off. Fly it by the numbers (e.g. in my maule I flew Downwind 80, base 70 and over the numbers at 60 - Over the numbers is 50' from where you want the wheels to touch). I would leave the throttle setting alone (14-15 inches MP and the throttle all the way out over the numbers) and control the decent rate with incremental notches of flaps. I do the same with my Bo (only the speeds are a little higher

Figure out what your various pattern speeds are, then build a procedure to achieve them every time. Landing short consistently is all about procedure and you can get yourself in trouble by not figuring out the performance limits of your plane.

Jim

Some thoughts to keep in mind: Stall speed on final is much slower at lower weights than the POH magic numbers show. Also, the stall warner comes on about 7-8 knots above the stall (yours is a light, if I recall, isn't it?). So one way to know how slow you can go is to go up to a safe altitude, then do a power off stall in the landing configuration as if you were coming in to land and got it too slow. Note the airspeed, then multiply it by 1.3 and use that.

Granted, I'm purposely mixing up IAS and CAS here, as the stall speed most people grab out of the book is CAS, but this method works remarkably well and still gives you a good handle on how slowly you can safely fly--at the weight you then have. Later when you load up, do it again to find out the new numbers.

My only other comment mimics another--keep that nose up longer, as it is a lot easier on the nose gear. But it's good--here's my own video coming into Marble, CO, which isn't any better, and I have a whole lot more time in the saddle than you do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGAN6pDYt_4 So keep it up--good job!

Cary

Thanks for the input! I'll take note to keep the nose wheel held up longer and lose more speed at the right time.

Jim- Thanks for the advice. Your number seem pretty close to mine, but I've carried some extra speed for those trees. I'll use the flying by the numbers next go around.

Cary- I'll definitely take her up to altitude and practice the stalls and note the speed, and btw you're right the stall warning is a little red light . Nice video and great landing. That's some beautiful country up there!

TxKiger wrote:Thanks for the input! I'll take note to keep the nose wheel held up longer and lose more speed at the right time.

Jim- Thanks for the advice. Your number seem pretty close to mine, but I've carried some extra speed for those trees. I'll use the flying by the numbers next go around.

Cary- I'll definitely take her up to altitude and practice the stalls and note the speed, and btw you're right the stall warning is a little red light . Nice video and great landing. That's some beautiful country up there!

Yeah... I saw that - Very smart to carry some speed when a go-around might be brewing. Inertia never has bad day when the shit hits the fan and you need get outta there...

I thought it looked pretty nice.

My one suggestion is to stay on top of the rudder. The nose was slicing back and forth all the way into the flare. Wiggle the rudder, wiggle your toes, do SOMETHING on base (or thereabouts) to wake up your feet. Good rudder control is what will separate you from the pack.

When I fly with someone, good rudder skills are immediately apparent and stand out - more so than any other aspect of their flying.

Cannon, thanks for that tip. I'll be sure to keep the toes working that rudder.

Expanding just a bit on what others have said, plus:

1. Stalls. Grab yourself a good instructor, go high, and fly the plane with the stall horn on all the time. Climbs, descents, turns. Do it a lot, with different load configurations. The horn is actually a crutch, really concentrate on how the plane feels at/near stall, a lot of aircraft don't have stall horns. When the stall break occurs learn to pickup the wing with the rudder, not the aileron.

2. Slips. If your plane's POH allows it, practice slips, A LOT and often. With (if allowed) and without flaps. Slips will get you slow, steepen your descent, and scrub off airspeed. If you don't practice slips frequently you are likely to forget about them at the most opportune moment, like when you are high or hot, or both.

3. Soft field. Here in central Texas we've been in a drought so long our turf strips have become hard as pavement. Treat every turf strip landing as soft field. Keep the nose off the ground as long as possible, use the appropriate flap setting as outlined in you POH. Keep the plane absolutely straight on roll out. With the nosewheel off the ground your steering will be all rudder and brakes (use brakes as a last resort). Develop awesome rudder skills. Should you decide to learn to fly taildraggers at some point in the future any sloppy rudder usage that nosedraggers allow will scare the daylights out of you in a taildragger at best, and ground loop you at worst.

Burn lots of Avgas and most importantly have tons of fun.

Barnstormer wrote:Expanding just a bit on what others have said, plus:

1. Stalls. Grab yourself a good instructor, go high, and fly the plane with the stall horn on all the time. Climbs, descents, turns. Do it a lot, with different load configurations. The horn is actually a crutch, really concentrate on how the plane feels at/near stall, a lot of aircraft don't have stall horns. When the stall break occurs learn to pickup the wing with the rudder, not the aileron.

2. Slips. If your plane's POH allows it, practice slips, A LOT and often. With (if allowed) and without flaps. Slips will get you slow, steepen your descent, and scrub off airspeed. If you don't practice slips frequently you are likely to forget about them at the most opportune moment, like when you are high or hot, or both.

3. Soft field. Here in central Texas we've been in a drought so long our turf strips have become hard as pavement. Treat every turf strip landing as soft field. Keep the nose off the ground as long as possible, use the appropriate flap setting as outlined in you POH. Keep the plane absolutely straight on roll out. With the nosewheel off the ground your steering will be all rudder and brakes (use brakes as a last resort). Develop awesome rudder skills. Should you decide to learn to fly taildraggers at some point in the future any sloppy rudder usage that nosedraggers allow will scare the daylights out of you in a taildragger at best, and ground loop you at worst.

Burn lots of Avgas and most importantly have tons of fun.

Great advice Phil! I'll make sure to go over this as soon as I can. I would like to transition into a taildragger within the next year so I'll definitely need to make sure my rudder skills are good. Thanks!

It is hard for me to tell but at the one minute mark of the video you may notice that the horizon suddenly gets higher in the screen. This was probably caused by you diving for the runway when you thought you had it made. That little dive increased your speed and resulted in the float. This is counter intuitive but to increase sink rate pull back on the stick so you slow closer to stall at the same time pulling back the power. The sink rate will increase dramatically and require a little power to smooth out the flare. My instructor would slap me upside the head anytime I dove for the runway. That will really bite you on a short strip.

I did notice an increase in speed when I dove after those trees. That makes sense to pull back to increase sink rate and slow the speed.

As soon as you can see the very beginning of the landing area over the trees, you can begin the descent. Hold that glide angle all the way down with throttle control, the most often ignored control. Keep your head out of the cockpit. With experience, outside sights, relative wind sound, stick position by feel not look, relative and changing buoyancy, etc. will become much, much more important than the airspeed indicator or anything else in the cockpit. Neither you, nor your instructor, is owned by the PTS now.

It's been a few years since I flew a Cherokee, but here are my thoughts:

1. Consider a grass runway to be a soft field. With stock tires, if the grass hasn't been mowed for a while, or if it's been wet it could very well be a soft field. So carry some power into the flare and ease it on. Then keep the nose up until it settles on it's own.

2. Your best take-off will probably be the modified soft field technique described in the Mountain Flying Bible for lower powered tricycle aircraft. Most of my flying experience is in a C-150 with cruise prop, and on grass or gravel it would get me airborn and above the trees again the fastest. Your Cherokee has a similar power loading, and even higher wing loading, so it should work well for you too. In short, start with full up elevator and 10 degrees flaps, when you feel the wings start to take some of the weight ease the nose down to about 9 degrees AoA. Get a protractor and a friend to hold the tail down so you can get a feel for the site picture at that angle. then hold that angle till it lifts off. level off in ground effect till you get to Vx.

My recollection is that the Cherokee comes down pretty steeply when you pull the power with full flaps, and that there was so little rudder authority that slips weren't really worth the effort.

practicing flying the length of a long runway in slow flight with full flaps is excellent advice. When you get to the point that you can't tell for sure if the wheels are touching or not, you've got it. Take note of the power setting required so you can advance the throttle to that point, or just a hair below, as you flare for your soft field landing.

And I have to laugh at the guys who said they couldn't hear your stall horn. I've only been in two different Cherokees, but both had a big honking red light for the stall warning, but no horn.

Have fun!
Phil

Thanks guys for the advice. All this is going to help!!! I can't wait to get out there and put these tips into action. After some practice I'll try to upload another video after I put into effect all the words of wisdom.

I'm curious. Many of the videos posted on this site, the pilots extend their pattern to be huge. The video in this link (not to pick on you) has quite a long final leg, with the turn from base being way out. And I've seen it on many other videos posted here. Why? Is it because you have the room, and why the hell not? I'm still a student, flying cubs and 172s. All our patterns are pretty close to the runway, with making the turn to base after passing about 45deg from the end of the runway, power at idle.

Thanks.