My experiences as an Ag instructor is responsible, I think, for my belief that speed is the culprit when ground loops cause extensive damage. We all know that ground loops occur more often as the airplane is slowing to a speed where the rudder is less effective. I have observed a lot of ground loops and have been in the back of tandem trainers on a few. I did a lot of single seat instructing from my lawn chair on the ground. Only one caused minor damage when a bungee broke and the wing tip got scruffed and wooden prop got splintered.

I have seen extensive damage on airplanes that the mechanic said was ground loop damage. My assumption was that it happened at considerable speed.

What is your experience, both personal and as a witness?

My $00.02

DO NOT STOP flying the aircraft until you are in the hangar. Simple but, true. TWs are unstable.

The only one I have seen, super cub landed on pavement, and as far as I could tell, it was 3 point, full aft stick after touching down, baby Bushwheel started to shimmy, it was shimming so bad I think the tail wheel un locked and around he went. Seems to be a common problem with the "heavy duty" Alaskan Bushwheel tail spring. I have never seen a wheel shimmy so badly.

Tom wrote:The only one I have seen, super cub landed on pavement, and as far as I could tell, it was 3 point, full aft stick after touching down, baby Bushwheel started to shimmy, it was shimming so bad I think the tail wheel un locked and around he went. Seems to be a common problem with the "heavy duty" Alaskan Bushwheel tail spring. I have never seen a wheel shimmy so badly.

Never seen a BabyBushWheel that worked 100% of the time. Border line dangerous product from my simple observations and readings.

They are shimmying or falling off as routine. Inspect them every flight, especially the single bolt. BTW CubCrafters has a double bolt, I was told.

The baby bushwheel I had on my Citabria worked great! Never shimmied once on me. But I had a stock spring, so must have something to do with the spring??

A1Skinner wrote:The baby bushwheel I had on my Citabria worked great! Never shimmied once on me. But I had a stock spring, so must have something to do with the spring??

The spring is not facing forward enough to provide stability which contributes to the shimmy. And the bolt(s) should be changed if they get loose or carefully inspected and tighten.

With care they are safe. But, be careful!

Just looking at techniques, what is causing significant damage? From what gets hauled into the hanger, speed is appearant. With good rudder control at high speeds, why is this happening?

contactflying wrote:Just looking at techniques, what is causing significant damage? From what gets hauled into the hanger, speed is appearant. With good rudder control at high speeds, why is this happening?

X-wind?

Landing in Burns Oregon in a 30 KT (gusts) crosswind with 7000' DA. Even a King Air had trouble keeping straight! Luckily I landed between gusts ( I am guessing). No problem but, I wouldn't recommend it.

Note: 31' Bushwheels, 3200 tail wheel

Landing in Burns Oregon in a 30 KT (gusts) crosswind with 7000' DA.....

No use busting a gut or an airplane with that kind of challenge. I've landed across the ramp when it had a better into wind than any runway. Ellensburg WA is an example of notorious winds - I think that have a bull-chain instead of a windsock. Last time there everyone in our group started our takeoff roll from the gas pump - directly into the 30-40 wind. Come on, we're all bush guys that could probably land crossways on a wide runway in those winds.

Karmutzen wrote:

Landing in Burns Oregon in a 30 KT (gusts) crosswind with 7000' DA.....

No use busting a gut or an airplane with that kind of challenge. I've landed across the ramp when it had a better into wind than any runway. Ellensburg WA is an example of notorious winds - I think that have a bull-chain instead of a windsock. Last time there everyone in our group started our takeoff roll from the gas pump - directly into the 30-40 wind. Come on, we're all bush guys that could probably land crossways on a wide runway in those winds.

7000' DA adds a little distance to your approach. There was convection, TS, rain, up drafts/down drafts and the wind was clocking about 30 degrees right to left. I did end up turning away from the wind during roll out ( an old seaplane trick)... Trying to avoid a feathering ground loop. It worked and I almost hit some runway lights on the edge.

I made several approaches helping to find a hole in the gusts. Looking back, your advice makes sense. Thanks. But, I need to keep my license.

Karmutzen wrote:

Landing in Burns Oregon in a 30 KT (gusts) crosswind with 7000' DA.....

No use busting a gut or an airplane with that kind of challenge. I've landed across the ramp when it had a better into wind than any runway. Ellensburg WA is an example of notorious winds - I think that have a bull-chain instead of a windsock. Last time there everyone in our group started our takeoff roll from the gas pump - directly into the 30-40 wind. Come on, we're all bush guys that could probably land crossways on a wide runway in those winds.

I have done that a few times. It was the safest option I had. I got yelled at for landing in the grass before. I told him I'm a shitty pilot. I started out on the runway, missed the lights and ended up in the grass. He got a good laugh out of that.

Could the cause of ground looping be from lack of reflexes? Not many people start out in tail wheels, maybe they are used to not having to use the rudders much?

I always angle from downwind corner to upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. Perfectly legal. Do most of you guys do that to take some of the crosswind component out?

Another question. If the strong crosswind component is greatly helping with our groundspeed, why is there such damages from too much groundspeed?

contactflying wrote:Another question. If the strong crosswind component is greatly helping with our groundspeed, why is there such damages from too much groundspeed?

Just a guess here but at a higher groundspeed if a pilot lands a little crooked then the sideload would be worse When the plane comes around it is much faster the centrifugal force. More speed = more damage.

Slower groundspeed with the same amount of crooked should be less sideload even though there is less rudder authority.

Karmutzen said:

No use busting a gut or an airplane with that kind of challenge. I've landed across the ramp when it had a better into wind than any runway. Ellensburg WA is an example of notorious winds - I think that have a bull-chain instead of a windsock. Last time there everyone in our group started our takeoff roll from the gas pump - directly into the 30-40 wind. Come on, we're all bush guys that could probably land crossways on a wide runway in those winds.

Yes, It's in front of the Safeway store. If I can work up the courage to do so I'll tell you my two ground loop stories. No cross winds involved though.

I guess speed can add to the damage sustained in a ground loop but, in my experiences damage has been caused by the objects and terain at the sides of the runways once directional control were lost.

I have been in a few ground loops, some as passenger and some unfortunatly at PIC.

1. At age 12, I was in the copilots seat of a Beech 18 that ground looped on take off when the right landing gear sissors failed allowing the right gear to turn to the right. We extited the grass runway facing the end of the runway where we had just started our take off roll from. Unfortunatley , there was a ditch along the side of the runway that ripped off the left landing , the wing dropped and bent as it hit the ground, The prop, which had been slowing because the pilot had yanked the throttles and mixture, hit the ground bending and slinging dirt and dust into the air. The plane was heavily damaged. If the ditch wasn't there it would have just been a wild ride with little to no damage. Our speed never got above 30mph.

2. I was in the copilots seat of a Cessna 180 with a freshly checked out low time tail wheel pilot. He performed a good landing but carried to much speed as he turned from the active runway to the cross runway on roll out. He lost control at a speed of about 10 to 15 mph. We spun around, the right wing tip came dangerously close to the ground but with no obsticles , the was no damage except to his ego. He never returned to fly for us again. Again this wa on a grass runway.

3. I had an engine failure in an Avid Flyer. I landed in the grass beside the runway. At the end of the roll out when the tail lost it's controll athourity, I started to drift to the left. I had full right rudder and full right brake but couldn't stop it from turning. the momentum had started and I was behind the power curve. I was along for the ride, only going 5 to 10 mph when the left main wheel contacted the 6" high freshly cemented taxiway edge. That spun the plane and let the tail wheel hit the curb hard enough to bend the tail post which took minor work to repair. Two things added to this accident beside my lack of flying the plane until it is tied down. This particular Avid has mechanical brakes which are uselesss and the tail wheel was free wheeling because we hadn't taken the tab out of it to make it a non full swiveling tailwheel. I also contribute some of the cause to my relaxing at the end of the roll out because I was just happy to be on the ground and in one piece, again I didn't continue to fly the plane until it was stopped. If ther wouldnt have been an obstical ther would have been no damage.

4. Same Avid, I was too stupid to lock the tail wheel after the first incident. I was letting my low time friend land from the right seat. He performed a perfect landing and I turned my head in his direction, taking my eyes off the runway, to give him praise for such a great landing during roll out. As I felt the plane turn I snapped my head forward. We were turning to the left, I jabbed the rudder and brake, we were headed for the trees along the runway, I had a split second where full throttle may have saved us but I was too slow to react. As we started to spin the left wing tip caught a small tree, we spun around and the plane tipped to the right. The tail wheel was side loaded when it hit the rough ground at the edge of the runway. The tail post and wing tip were damaged but easily repaired. My buddy was devistated, thinking it was his fault. I took full blame for this incident, I should have focused on the landing until the plane came to a complete stop. My celebration of his perfect landing, during roll out, also made him relax which contributed to the ground loop. This happened on grass at a spped less than 10 mph. Again the damage occured when we contacted the trees, if it would have been an open feild there wouldn't have been any damage.

I have learned from my mistakes. I had gotten lazy when it had come to taxing and roll out, I had let my emotions break my concentration, and I had used bad judgement letting a low time pilot land such a twichy, short coupled airplane.

contactflying wrote:I always angle from downwind corner to upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. Perfectly legal. Do most of you guys do that to take some of the crosswind component out?

One thing I remember when I was getting checked out in a 180 Cessna was start on the downwind side, the airplane will want to weathervane and go into the wind. I always thought it would want to blow you off the runway, start up wind. I was scared of the 180 in the wind but after getting checked out on a windy day I don't mind it.

contactflying wrote:I always angle from downwind corner to upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. Perfectly legal. Do most of you guys do that to take some of the crosswind component out?

Yep. I do the same on take off to minimize the component.

8GCBC wrote:

Karmutzen wrote:

Landing in Burns Oregon in a 30 KT (gusts) crosswind with 7000' DA.....

I made several approaches helping to find a hole in the gusts. Looking back, your advice makes sense. Thanks. But, I need to keep my license.

Probably just as risky to your license if you attempt (and subsequently wad up an airplane) landing in front of the tower beyond the max cross wind component of your airplane. Of course, all conjecture. Your only option sometimes is to land somewhere else or land across like mentioned above. I have landed on a taxiway as well as cross-runway at towered airport. I worked through the issue with the tower beforehand. Amazingly it worked out great and the air police did not come down and arrest me. No regulation against landing on a taxiway oriented into the wind or across a runway that I know of.

Tom,

My Dad had the problem of that kind of thinking when he soloed in crop duster "One eyed Bill's" Taylorcraft while building Hillcrest CC in Broken Arrow, OK for Press Maxwell in the early fifties. The wind came up and Bill hadn't shown him crosswind technique yet. He aimed for the upwind side of the runway and drifted to the downwind side and touched down with a mean side load. Somehow he didn't break anything. Slow was the only way pilots were taught in those days of short strips.

59 SC,

The tactical situation is always fluid. I can't believe how many tense miles are flown out west in the land of deserts, straight roads, and single runway airports to find an alternate with both gas and a runway oriented with the wind. Common sense says to land with fuel still in the tank oriented as nearly as possible into a strong afternoon wind. Wait, all afternoon winds are strong.

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