Ground loop is center of gravity movement not in the airplane's direction of motion. It is uncontrolled yaw that rapidly gets worse until opposite rudder movement is made exactly sufficient to yaw the center of gravity back into alignment with the airplane's direction of motion. Tricky. Or dynamic proactive rudder movement, gross or fine so long as continuous, can bracket the target and prevent uncontrolled yaw in only one direction. Dynamic proactive rudder movement is a small but dynamic dose of the thing we don't want, uncontrolled yaw in one direction rather than small dynamic yaw in both directions. We're better when we move before it moves.

Yes, both techniques work. Either, without constant attention, will fail to work. What's in your wallet?

Ok... so I'll admit, I used to think you were totally looped... I mean who moves the thing around just to keep straight? Right? What's wrong with just staying on the centerline and moving when you drift.... and then it happened. After rolling my eyes at the very notion, you pointed out that I was happily wagging my tail down the row
Holy smokes there I was, on video, in front of God and everybody
... flapping my boody like a tik tok wonder

And the more I paid attention, the more self conscious I was, and the more I realized, I was going straight. By moving...
Your bicycle analogy drove it all home.
Thank you for that.

Take care,
Rob

If everybody had the privilege of leaning to fly in a Piper Pacer as I did they would under stand that once the plane is in motion your feet should also be!!!! I think I could get a tap dancer to land tailwheel aircraft in only one or two hours!! Took me over 20 hours to solo but I was old and even older now. The smaller/lighter the plane the more important every control(aileron/rudder/elevator/stabilizer/breaks/prop//trim/carb heat/prop/ect) Matter especially when the wind becomes a factor. Rudder is King for landing a tailwheel, the Queen: aileron as everyone knows must have complete attention in a crosswind also or she will bitch slap you hard!;
So what got me to log in and post is the Ground Loop!! how many have trained to do one? At what speed is it a not event? At what speed are you rolling the dice? How many pilots have been trained to pick a ground loop spot on landing??? How many pilots do you know that locked the brakes at low speed and put a plane on its back or nose that would have maybe been just a wingtip in a ground loop. I was trained to always consider the best side of the runway to run off of/crash and best place near the end to ground loop.
So let's say we go out with 3 other planes on a back country fly out. You are the last one in and despite the clear instructions that once some one is down they get well clear of the lading zone all on the same side, so you have a bail out side. Then the first pilot just locks a tire and pivot giving you 3-5 feet room to clear their prop with your wingtip (It only takes one or two HARD Bitch slaps once you are on the ground to cure them of that by the way) Now you included the other Ya Hoo that wants to pull of on the other side of the now you have no good escape right or left. But you are going to show them how it is done! Some how you come in hot and bounce burning up all that good ground passing your friends planes and heading for the cut bank. Now you could just lock them up and flip into the creek, or slow up and ground loop. Might get a wing tip or the tail but that is a lot cheaper than a prop and rebuild.
The Ground Loop is an actual flight ground maneuver that if done properly will prevent aircraft damage and save lives! In my Pa 18A a 15 MPH ground loop properly done is not a big deal. At 20 MPH your chances of getting a wingtip/prop/gear is a lot greater. Every plane is different so if you are pushing the edge do some slow speed test and see how you aircraft responds. Spring gear may tuck so make you landing length appropriate to the bail out procedure.
Constant small adjustments by reflex action work great because if the adjustment is wrong the next one will correct it. I just came off skis and went to 31 inch bushwheel today. I was at big lake in some strange swirling wing trying to find the ground. Can't really tell you how I did it other than I moved a lot!! Not a big deal, dance on the rudder and respect the Queen your live will be happy.
DENNY

Rob's Ag video, he mentioned, had a camera looking back across the vertical stabilizer and rudder. Yes, in the field we also use the anti-turn control (rudder only) to walk the exact row or to stay ahead of the centered light bar. We are often low enough that any bank would drag the boom, but it works at altitude to nail a target as well and keep the wing level at the same time.

Denny's taught and used ground loop was common back in the day of the 1200' grass small town airport and control cable activated mechanical brakes we used for taxi only. Why did they put mechanical heel brakes in those old airplanes? So we wouldn't wreck them.

contactflying wrote: What's in your wallet?

I was a 300 hour Cherokee pilot when I started tail wheel lessons.

When the tail wheel airplane starts to leave the center line I tap the opposite rudder pedal just enough to stop the excursion, not try to get back to the center line. If I do use enough rudder to get back to the center line I most often over shoot. Then need more rudder to get back, and over shoot even more, then the third attempt needs even more and that's when the tail comes around.

Yes, if we are not already moving it will go. Yes, now the target is somewhere else than down the centerline. That is why I insist the student is moving her/his feet on short final. Most instructors prefer the wait and react method so they can stay on the controls. I didn't because we can't ride another pilots rhythm. All of us tire and sleep sometimes. In that case we will need to know the more common jab it back method. Even with that method, however, I go dynamic gross and then bring it down to a fine dynamic walk again until slow and then gross again.

Proper dynamic and proactive rudder control is critical for preventing ground loops. Done a fair amount of tailwheel instruction the last 3 years. From newbies to 20K plus hour airline pilots. I have had 3 minor ground loops over the last 3 years in training. Learned a lot from each one. Luckily no damage other than bruised egos and shaky feet. I will say that all three of these grounds loops occurred due to a combination of errors. Yes - there was some slow rudder responses but I also saw effects of over correction and improper aileron/elevator and throttle inputs also effecting the longitudinal axis and control.

I agree with Denny - knowing the speed of where the airplane can be ground looped purposely will help mitigate damage. The first 3-5 seconds after the wheels touch (wheelie or 3 point) are the most critical. Obviously flying a tailwheel airplane until it is chalked or tied down applies but the danger zone is at high speeds and is usually due to an over correction from the airplane being set down with improper alignment of the longitudinal axis with the intended landing path. After the tail comes down following a wheelie also represents an area of potential ground looping. Better to be slow with no lift left in the wing.

Wind is really what separates the men from the boyz - sorry ladies. Gusty crosswinds (hardly ever see crosswinds without gusts) carry the highest risk and require the most skill. It is not just a proactive rudder control but a dance of rudder, aileron, elevator, and power. You can talk about it on the ground. Discuss the effects of aileron on adverse yaw, wind on the vertical stabilizer, rudder effectiveness, and tailwheel steering but in the end flying a tailwheel with heavy wind conditions is like riding a Bucking Bronco - you only will learn how to do it through experience. Start slowly and move up to the level of highest pucker.

I see a difference between properly trained tailwheel pilots and nose wheel pilots. Nosewheel airplanes can handle so much improper yaw during touchdown. A great teaching point I discovered with the nosewheel pilots is to have them watch the direction of the longitudinal axis after the touch down. If it changes significantly the axis was improperly aligned. It is amazing how forgiving the trikes are in comparison to conventional gear. Having the awareness of the axis of the airplane with the effects of rudder (most important), but aileron/elevator, and power are the key areas to keep the airplane from getting bent. I will say teaching tailwheel has been a real experience for me. I have learned so much from it. It is also super stressful but I have enjoyed every minute of it too.




Josh

50 years 7,000 hrs. most in tail wheel, I'm getting pretty relaxed after the plane is in the hanger and I'm on the second cup of coffee.

I can discern from your experience with ground loop, Josh, that you are not riding the controls. I congratulate you on that. Money nowadays may dictate that the airplane is more important than student learning, but I have never believed that. I also have trained in junk.

Dynamic proactive rudder and dynamic throttle are key to gusts. I expect you already do so but let them practice keeping the nose on the target in 45 degree Dutch rolls (or coordination rolls if you prefer) to teach how much more important the rudder is than aileron in keeping the nose going toward the target and the wing level. For those who insist on coordinated turns on final to keep the wing level in gusts (oxymoron), they at least need to understand the need to lead rudder in excited turns as with gust disruption. Also mitigate gust disruption with dynamic proactive rudder.

Although it doesn't look good on paper, or the net, exaggeration is an effective teaching method. The great thing about dynamic proactive control movement is that amount makes little difference so long as it is dynamic. Of course the speed of relative wind makes a big difference, but babies wobble grossly before they get finesse. Students needn't stress over "how much?" That thinking will almost always be too little. That is the big problem with the stab it back into alignment technique. How much is just enough? Even with students who insisted on doing the stab and brakes I said, "lots of rudder both ways and don't scare me with brakes." Put it in and take it out...quickly.

You're doing great Josh.

The fact that all my pre-solo students, save one determined to not solo boss lady, soloed in less than ten hours has more to do with what I learned from Ronnie Westmoreland at Ft. Wolters than with me. He said to every student, "Move the damn control. How are you going to know what it does without moving it." We learned the controls one at a time in hover. Without the dynamic proactive movement he taught, learning what they actually did was not quickly possible. Fast learning is severely limited without dynamic proactive, both gross and fine depending on our stage of learning, control movement. The controls are rudder or anti-torque pedal, aileron is the exception, elevator or cyclic, and throttle or collective. Flying is actually simpler than it is complicated. Or as Rob says, the bicycle. Stabbing it back into longitudinal alignment with just one pedal is not possible on the bicycle. Dynamic proactive pedal, dynamic proactive lean (aileron), dynamic proactive throttle (speed of pedalling), and no elevator available. Even riding a bicycle is simpler than it is complicated.