Agreed, Whee. My takeaway point I was poorly attempting to make is that the "steep" approach with power on needs to be "steeper" than the power off approach to make it work, i.e. more than 10 degrees approach angle, in the case of my 172. As Mr. Scout said earlier, most people may incorrectly associate "power on" as "hanging on the prop". It is really easy to get a power on, 3 to 4 (or 5 or 6 for that matter) degree glideslope at most reasonable approach speeds and develop a false sense of security that you'll make the runway with engine out. You won't.

One truly needs to be firmly entrenched in that reverse command area. That means significantly below 55 kts for most of these birds, with a fair amount of power and an aggressive sink rate, to be capable to push the nose over and still hit your intended landing spot you planned to make at the point in time that the fan stopped blowing. That's pretty uncomfortable for most folks, definitely myself included, as it results in a pretty high deck angle and sink rate. One starts wondering when the bank safe you're in is gonna grow some wings......

BTW, I have to say I have learned a great deal from this thread, from all comers. Like all free advice, there's some good stuff and bad.

Ain't been in the weeds yet, but don't put it past me.........

Flynengr

good stuff u learned, whee. lori's ideas are dead on. whether u are packing 85 or 300 hp, the approach ideas are still very viable. i've used what u describe to a T all over idaho, and it works and is very safe. if u keep your bird light, you will get to visit most any strip u want in idaho. my dad put his callair and stinson both in all the strips u can name, and was based out of the falconberry, which i know u know where that is. precision is a must with those lower horsepower birds, and any bird for that matter. lori preaches slow flight precision all the time, and she knows what she is talking about...just my 2 cts. worth, as i'm sure that i'm just a day from being "in the weeds...!"
remember to have a blast! dont let the gomers, experts, and etc here hold u back...! being in the weeds ain't all bad! just keep it out of the damn trees! the weeds (which are nevada trees) ain't gonna hurt much...!

Would these "high deck angles" be anywhere the same as on a Vx climb?

Rob, I assume that was a reference to my earlier post, if so, my seat of the pants says deck angle is higher to get the same effect, and I believe the POH backs that up.

Vx clean on my bird is 59 kias. If I assume the delta between flaps up and flaps down on best glide translates (65 kias vs 60 kias) that would put Vx dirty, a non-published number at around 54-55 kias. Since best glide flaps down (i.e. least induced + parasitic drag) is at 60 kias, that would say that at your "full flap" Vx you mention, my 172 has rounded the corner into the dark side. However, 55 kias doesn't seem to really be far enough away from the "point" of the curve at 60 (at least by my playing around with it) to make a pushover achieve significantly better glide performance - By the time it is transitioned, there is not enough difference in the descent angle to make up. Seems like I need to be 50-ish or slightly under kias to see the results Mr. Scout described, at least in the Skyhawk. In that case, the nose is up there a ways higher than the Vx profile, maybe 3/4 way from full flap 60 kias power off towards power off stall break AOA.

Also, when climbing for Vx, who's looking for their landing spot and adjusting power up and down? It's full coals, positive climb and 59-60 kias airspeed, right? Climbing out at Vx is comfortable -the part as a low time pilot I think is most difficult to get used to is the elevator ride DOWN with the nose high in the air.

I do greatly appreciate your thoughts and input.

Flynengr

I see what you are saying Flynengr, but we both agree that it will work if taken to an extreme like Mr. Scout. I typically dumb things down so I can understand them and apply them to my simple plane. On my Luscombe if I can nail my best glide speed, 70mph, it will produce ~14:1 glide ratio but if I am off of that at all it drops off considerably, if I'm at 65mph the glide is ~12:1. These are not published numbers but they are from a Luscombe guru so they have to be taken with a grain of salt.

When performing these "high deck angle" approaches how do you keep from touching tail first? If I fly my approach under 67mph the tail always touches first.

jomac wrote: precision is a must with those lower horsepower birds, and any bird for that matter.

Which is why I'm limited to where I can go...still too much of a noobie

How was the races in SLC? Had a buddy that was supposed to be down there racing but I don't know if he made it.

races in slc rocked...i did not get to attend but saw some live footage of most of it. a bunch of my guys got to
go and had a blast...wx was poor here and there, and i refuse to drive to slc. stayed at work and sold some bikes and such. don't sell your luscombe short, those work quite well from what i've seen...! u might consider a few days
with some of lori's guys, like maybe art lazzarini in hailey, he is affordable and a true pro. i think he uses a 170B, an aeronca and such, so he would be very good in your bird, and close to boise. just a thought.

Thought you might think this is cool jomac. Supposedly Falconberry, 1955.

wow, thanks whee! do wish we could all go and land there again, what a great place to camp and fish. up until the last

large fire season a few years ago, we used to hike in and camp in the screened in porch of the 2-story lodge, and

it was way cool. like stepping back in time for me... as my dad checked-out early at age 52 due to cancer and a rather

hard life-style, and i miss bouncing in and out of there as i did a long time ago...! i have old reel to reel movies of

some rather large, legendary parties in there, and remember counting about 15-25 birds there at once!

thanx again, jo

Hey, we have a new member now:

Pilot Makes Emergency Landing On Highway
Pilot Was Sean Tucker, CHP Says
POSTED: 10:47 am PDT May 4, 2009
UPDATED: 11:20 am PDT May 4, 2009


KING CITY, Calif. -- An aerobatic pilot had to make an emergency landing on a major California highway after his plane ran out of fuel.


Pilot Sean D. Tucker, who performs in air shows worldwide for Team Oracle, made an emergency landing on Highway 101 near King City at about 7:22 p.m. on Sunday after issuing a mayday call, California Highway Patrol officials said.


The bi-plane pilot reported that the plane ran out of fuel, CHP said.


CHP shut down the road south of First Street as Tucker refueled his plane. After refueling the plane, Tucker took off from the highway.


Tucker is considered one of the world's premier pilots and has flown in more than 425 air shows.