A couple of us pilots have been wondering about the regulations regarding landing on a lake shoreline BELOW the high-water mark. Many lakes within CA and NV in particular have more than one agency regulating the water rights, water activity, surrounding land and even land UNDER the water.

My theory is that, IF a lake allows seaplane operations, then if you land a wheel plane BELOW the high- water mark, you should be legal. Aircraft operations are allowed on the water, what difference does it make? Just stay below the high-water mark and you might as well be on the water. There have been several cases where I have discussed with the USFS, BOR, PG&E, etc. that where seaplanes are allowed, its BECAUSE you are within the regulating agency's area below the high-water mark. Above that, then the agency might change as do the rules. I was trying to start a Seaplane Guide Service in the CA Sierras several years ago when this came to light.

What do you guys think? Any validity to my thoughts? Anyone been told otherwise?

Thanks

I landed below the "high water" mark, no issues with any authorities.

patrol guy wrote:I landed below the "high water" mark, no issues with any authorities.

Great mother of Moses! I hope thats an old picture and no one got hurt. Actually I hope that Swingle got it on film and still no one got hurt.

When did that happen John. Was that the project plane you had in the barn two years ago.

Last summer, every time I would fly over Shasta Lake I would see lots of places to land along the shore line cus of low water. Problem is that there are lots of stumps still in the lake.

Lots of sand bars in the Sacramento River that would be inviting for sombody like Cayotee Ugly.

Tim

Won't speak for other agencies, but in areas managed by the National Park Service (talking about the CONUS here) it won't work. You may land in designated areas only (closed unless open.) Units that have aircraft operations have specifically designated airstrips in regulation. The areas that allow seaplane operation do it by designating the surface area of the water as a designated "airstrip." If you aren't on the surface of the water, you ain't in the designation.

Example, from Glen Canyon / Lake Powell:

Sec. 7.70 Glen Canyon National Recreation Area.

(a) Designated airstrips.
Bullfrog, latitude 37[deg]33[min]00[sec] N., longitude
110[deg]42[min]45[sec] W.
Hite, latitude 37[deg]53[min]30[sec] N., longitude
110[deg]23[min]00[sec] W.
The entire surface of Lake Powell, subject to the restrictions
contained in Sec. 2.17 of this chapter.

Edit: Here is the general regulation for all National Park Service areas including national seashores and national rec areas managed by the NPS, outside of Alaska.

TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

CHAPTER I--NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

PART 2_RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION--Table of Contents

Sec. 2.17 Aircraft and air delivery.

(a) The following are prohibited:
(1) Operating or using aircraft on lands or waters other than at
locations designated pursuant to special regulations.
(2) Where a water surface is designated pursuant to paragraph (a)(1)
of this section, operating or using aircraft under power on the water
within 500 feet of locations designated as swimming beaches, boat docks,
piers, or ramps, except as otherwise designated.
(3) Delivering or retrieving a person or object by parachute,
helicopter, or other airborne means, except in emergencies involving
public safety or serious property loss, or pursuant to the terms and
conditions of a permit.

Hmmm??? Let's see.......

"Yeah, umm, sorry sir, but I had to make an emergency landing because I switched from the left gas tank to the right gas tank and the engine quit. I just happen to be over this nice landing spot over the shoreline. I inspected my fuel selector valve and everything seems to be fine now. Must have had an air bubble in the line"

Probably won't work though.

Thinking of banks exposed by receding water makes me wonder what it is like to land on a side hill? Is there any difference between conventional gear and tri-gear on a side hill? I've landed on some hills, but always with the fall line, and not cross slope.

tom

Savannah Tom,
I will not speak for larger nosewheel aircraft but If the Savannah has similar nose wheel steering to the 701 I can tell you that even on the steep road crowns of the 14' wide township roads here I would have to step hard and brake to slide the uphill wheel unless I landed centered on the road. If you ever rode a Big Red Honda three wheeler on a side hill that is the best comparison I can make. It will want to turn you downhill. So far my tail wheel experience has been better in that regard. I prefer two wheel landings on these narrow roads with a steep crown or high shoulder or with a gravel windrow left from the road grader.

dirtstrip wrote:Savannah Tom,
I will not speak for larger nosewheel aircraft but If the Savannah has similar nose wheel steering to the 701 I can tell you that even on the steep road crowns of the 14' wide township roads here I would have to step hard and brake to slide the uphill wheel unless I landed centered on the road. If you ever rode a Big Red Honda three wheeler on a side hill that is the best comparison I can make. It will want to turn you downhill. So far my tail wheel experience has been better in that regard. I prefer two wheel landings on these narrow roads with a steep crown or high shoulder or with a gravel windrow left from the road grader.

My Savannah is basically a rip off of the 701. I've probably landed with a 5% side slope, and not noticed anything. I guess I need to find a sloping farm field for an emergency oil check and see what happens.

tom

Savannah Tom,
Just land on top of the rise and taxi downslope and turn across the slope. A little at a time and increase the speed and you will find how much it is capable of. In any event a curving short rollout on a shore line at least won't put you in a ditch, fence or pole.

dirtstrip wrote:Savannah Tom,
Just land on top of the rise and taxi downslope and turn across the slope. A little at a time and increase the speed and you will find how much it is capable of. In any event a curving short rollout on a shore line at least won't put you in a ditch, fence or pole.

Yeah, but I don't want to go swimming, either. I'll find a big old field where I can't run into, over, or through anything. Thanks for the thoughts.

tom

Tailwheel airplanes want to turn uphill on a slope. That tendency can be pretty powerful on a really steep beach.

I'd second Richard's comment: It's gonna be hard to find a shoreline in the lower 48 that's "legal" to land on. And, the "I had a fuel system glitch" argument may get you out of jail, but the local authorities might just seize the plane, dissassemble it, hold on to it for a long time in outside storage before they decide to return it. And, the feds aren't the only ones, stay away from reservation lands in many parts of the country.

MTV

Answer to the scout pic: It was 2006 (only two years old) and was parked next to a lake at a fly-in. A dust devil blew across the place and turned the tail down hill and it rolled in backwards.

Side slope landings tip. Know which way the wind is blowing. You do not want it coming from the up hill, or land side and get under that lifted wing.

What I have found in the past more often than not is that Agencies don't HAVE any regulations against it. If you ASK them they will say no,...Safe answer. Push a little more and ask them to quote the SPECIFIC Ordinance against it, they can't, nor can the ranger or manager find one. Always take the name of that person. So it seems its can be very specific. I have spend HOURS looking through regulations and many times I simply cannot find any information.

Just wondering outside of the National Parks, Wilderness Areas, Monuments, anyone know of a blanket BLM reg? Or Forest? I was told in Utah, if ATV's are allowed and you don't block traffic, BLM doesn't care, land away. That doesn't seem to be the case in Oregon eh?

I have had friends quote the "below high-water mark" argument to me regarding landing on river bars, this has generally been where the river runs through private property. "The surrounding property is private, but the river (up to high-water mark) is a navigable waterway & therefore public domain" is the stated postion.
Landing below high-water mark on a lake... I don't know. What's the surface like? I walked the shoreline of Rimrock lake adjacent to Tieton airstrip in the washington Cascades when the water level was way down, and it was all sticky mud. Didn't look too airplane freindlt to me, bushwheels or not.

Eric

Well I would have to yes, Its all open>If It looks landable then damm it,It probably is!Oh,,,, and Have a nice day