Man what a headache commercial aviation has become. If we did not have so many bags and people the Maule would have been the way to go. Cabernet to Cattle Cars is a short blog that I wrote about the debacle. I feel for those of you who have to do this on a routine basis.

Lately, I've only been flying commercial 3-5 times a year for the last 2-3 years (thankfully!!). But yeah, it down right sucks! The one thing I noticed about my Delta flights (and maybe it's just the routes I'm flying) is that they seem to be using those regional jets even more. They're OK for short trips. But they are using them for the longer routes now rather than the larger jets. My guess is that the regional jets are cheaper to operate (crew and fuel) but the airline still charges what it would cost on a larger jet (I'm guessing). Anyway, I can go on and on......... but not now

The other thing is that TSA is a down right joke!!!! I was on a flight to Birmingham, AL a couple weeks ago and had to take a double look at grandma crocheting across the isle from me She was using those long metal needles to crochet!! How the heck did she get past the TSA checkpoint with those?? And TSA is worried about other ladies with damp underwear??? Holly smokes!!

Anyway (again ), I'm getting on another pointless rant that has nothing to do with Backcountry Flying

That is what we get....

...when airfares are a fraction of what they once were corrected for inflation. The price of Boeing airliners has not declined and fuel cost have risen by 400% since airline deregulation. Believe me the cheap airfares come right out of the airline employees paychecks and retirement.....the loss of stockholder equity and Billions of dollars in loans never repaid to lenders. It has been a direct transfer of wealth from the employes, stockholders and lenders .....a subsidy provided to the air traveler.

That is why every Legacy Airline in this nation except for American Airlines has filed for bankruptcy at least once. That is why all the other Legacy Airline employees have lost much of their retirement plans and taken up to 50% pay cuts. That is why Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, Old Continental , Wien Alaska, Frontier and others completely vanished. That is why Western, Northwest, Continental, TWA, America West, Piedmont, PSA, AirWest, Wein Alaska, Texas International, Ozark, North Central, Southern, Republic, all merged into other companies or about too in the case of CAL/UA....and then disappeared from the face of the earth. That is why over 200 airlines have come into existance since deregulation in 1978 and only three remain.

We can go back to the beginning of my career (1972)when only 27% of Americans had ever flown on a airliner, tickets were expensive, service was wonderful and generally only the wealthy and business persons could afford to fly. Or we can remain as we are now where nearlly 90% of all Ameicans have traveled by airliner....keep the cattle car arrangement, no services and cheap tickets.

Operating airliners is very expensive. We get what we pay for. I agree that traveling on the airlines is unpleasant and that security makes it down right miserable. I am retired from the airlines and can fly free....but aviod it except for very long distance travel. But we can either have "Greyhound of the Air" that most folks can afford....or go back to the exclusiveness of pre 1978. Can't have it both ways.

Or one can always get in their car, spend 3 days on the road,with kids screaming, pay hotels, meals, gas, speeding tickets, wear and tear on the vehicle, etc. just driving from Salt Lake to Chicago. See what that cost.

Bob

z3skybolt wrote:That is what we get....

...when airfares are a fraction of what they once were corrected for inflation. Believe me the cheap airfares come right out of the airline employees paychecks and retirement: loss of stockholder equity and Billions of dollars in loans never repaid to lenders.

bob

Agree with you Bob, both my father & father-in-law are airline captains along with many of my good friends so I get an inside look at a lot of aspects with many different carriers that most don't get to see.

I personally think that increasing the fares (to a point) and services offered back towards the old ways would improve things a good bit. Affordable for everyone does not always equal better. In this case, affordable for everyone...well you read the blog.

Flying is a privilege, not a right...all aspects of it.

lowflybye wrote:

z3skybolt wrote:That is what we get....

...when airfares are a fraction of what they once were corrected for inflation. Believe me the cheap airfares come right out of the airline employees paychecks and retirement: loss of stockholder equity and Billions of dollars in loans never repaid to lenders.

bob

Agree with you Bob, both my father & father-in-law are airline captains along with many of my good friends so I get an inside look at a lot of aspects with many different carriers that most don't get to see.

I personally think that increasing the fares (to a point) and services offered back towards the old ways would improve things a good bit. Affordable for everyone does not always equal better. In this case, affordable for everyone...well you read the blog.

Flying is a privilege, not a right...all aspects of it.

I'm right in behind you guys. I agree with both of you. I may not know more than half what goes on behind the scenes at these airlines. But I don't dig these airlines operating these small regional jets more and more and paying the crew peanuts compared to the crews flying the larger jets.

Just a note on the loading the plane from front to rear instead of the "efficient" sounding way of rear to front. I've seen it done rear to front...the plane tipped up on it's tail since all rear passengers were loaded first and went all to the back, and no weight in the front.....

It's a choice between $700 and 7 hours for the two of us to drive and park at DIA, wait, fly, and drive to our regular MT destination. Or I can spend $850 and 4 1/2 to 5 hours (5 1/2 IFR, with rest stop) to drive to my plane, have a good time with better food, take in some great scenery, land a couple miles from my destination.

GA was clearly more economical to fly your own plane until the late 80's. The way things are going with the airlines, I think that may happen again. It's almost there now, not even counting the bizarre contributions of the TSA to the mix.

Tadpole wrote:Just a note on the loading the plane from front to rear instead of the "efficient" sounding way of rear to front. I've seen it done rear to front...the plane tipped up on it's tail since all rear passengers were loaded first and went all to the back, and no weight in the front.....

Yup, seen it too! I once made a fuel stop in Ashville, NC in a C-172SP years ago. The ramp guys were talking about something they heard on the radio. Apparently a ATR-72 or something like it has sat on its tail. It had full fuel and passengers were boarding at the time of the incident. Sure enough, I looked down the ramp across from the FBO and it was sitting on the tail.

One of the reasons I'm trying to decide which plane next. I want a XC, IFR plane to carry my wife, 4yr old, soon-to-be-born, and myself on trips to see family. I'm tired of flying commercial and would much rather do it myself even at a higher cost. More freedom too, and typically faster. Window shopping now while I evaluate what to get.

lesuther wrote:It's a choice between $700 and 7 hours for the two of us to drive and park at DIA, wait, fly, and drive to our regular MT destination. Or I can spend $850 and 4 1/2 to 5 hours (5 1/2 IFR, with rest stop) to drive to my plane, have a good time with better food, take in some great scenery, land a couple miles from my destination.

GA was clearly more economical to fly your own plane until the late 80's. The way things are going with the airlines, I think that may happen again. It's almost there now, not even counting the bizarre contributions of the TSA to the mix.

It may be that way for certain markets. However it still is cheaper than driving in many cases. I am looking at a quick trip to Charleston, SC from Detroit and back next month. Southwest has me for $178 each way. Hard to beat. I once flew that same route. 5.5 hours in a C-172SP or 14 hours of driving @ 80MPH door to door to include rest stops. Hard to beat.

lownslow79 wrote:

Tadpole wrote:Just a note on the loading the plane from front to rear instead of the "efficient" sounding way of rear to front. I've seen it done rear to front...the plane tipped up on it's tail since all rear passengers were loaded first and went all to the back, and no weight in the front.....

Yup, seen it too! I once made a fuel stop in Ashville, NC in a C-172SP years ago. The ramp guys were talking about something they heard on the radio. Apparently a ATR-72 or something like it has sat on its tail. It had full fuel and passengers were boarding at the time of the incident. Sure enough, I looked down the ramp across from the FBO and it was sitting on the tail.

That is why a 727 (and others) have a tail stand. FedEx / UPS and others use nose gear straps on the other aircraft models...keeps the aircraft from doing a stationary wheelie. : )

lowflybye wrote:That is why a 727 (and others) have a tail stand. FedEx / UPS and others use nose gear straps on the other aircraft models...keeps the aircraft from doing a stationary wheelie. : )

that requires more man hours to use.....

Maybe just a dumb question from a dumb asker??
But why does a captain who fly's 10 days a month with all expenses paid, all time spent for training is paid and gets free rides to where ever for life, feel he is worth over a 6 figures a year? Especially when they retire they still make as much as when they were working?
Just what are you guys bitching about?
Now I have some good friends that are in this situation. Also have some good friends that are retired Government Employees with the same set up.
Now I did not follow that route nor did I ever think I should, and some of you may think I have a little envy going on here.
Maybe a little as I look back, but I'm pretty happy with me! If I did not have 4 ex wives, and had been a little more aware when things went south a few years ago I would have the same income with out ever having a retirement/ 401K/ pension.
Usually cost me the same if I fly myself or if I fly on a smoker.
Usually always come out ahead if someone goes along with me.
I think the times of living with EXCESS is maybe coming to an end?
I know I'm going to have to cut some extras from my life.
I do not think the government, or private company's can pay you top wages while you work and also pay you top wages when you are retired, just does not make sense to me??
Maybe that's why most of those airlines filed??
Don't know , just my opine.
GT

In reference to the assumptions about the over-paid/underworked airline captain. You forgot to mention the two or more airlines that failed earlier in the career, starting over again after taking a year plus to get a new job and get through training, sitting in a "crashpad" for years on reserve as a junior FO/captain, making peanuts. Being away from your family for over half of every month,.Having your retirement plan gutted. Etc The few people that are lucky enough to end up with a schedule and pay like that deserve it...

Just wanted to explain this stereotype that is wildly in-accurate....

Matt

Closing line from John Lears
My *(^&^flying career


Now some of you may be asking why so many airlines collapsed that I worked for and why I got fired so many times. My excuse is simple. I am not the brightest crayon in the box, I am extremely lazy, I have a smart mouth and a real poor effing attitude.

Just trying to stir the pot!!
Slow day!
GT

One thing for sure is that any airline pilot fresh out of Embree Riddle (or what ever school they went to) deserves to be paid more than $19K-$30K (if even that much) starting off. What ever hours they work per month (90 hours max??) they should be starting more in the $40K-$60K neighborhood (just my opinion). And then the typical 3%-7% (or whatever fair percentage) pay increase each year from that. The bottom line is, however many hours these pilots are allowed to work per month, it should be at least on the top end of a blue collar worker salary!

As far as the big six figure salary's and pensions go??? I guess that can be debatable till the cows come home with some of us

Heck, this thread has already been hijacked...........
From what I see and hear, more folks than not have done some mild to serious 'belt tightening' compared to about 4 years ago. If you are one of the exceptions-Bless you, I hope it holds for you.
Unfortunately the people who have been injured ($) the most have been the ones who have worked hard, saved and planned and lived reasonably frugally-counting on/planning for a good retirement.
I don't know if this bad economy is over (have we stopped crashing yet?) or how long/bad it is going to hurt-and how many more casualties there will be.
At this point, It is not looking pretty, and the obvious problems (long list) are NOT being fixed.

On a much brighter note, we had a mighty good weekend at the JC fly in and we should all appreciate each day we have to enjoy. I keep loosing friends to the grim reaper and am again reminded we need to be thankful for and cherish life's many joys, AND our friends and families.

If you have/are enjoying the wonders and joys of flying-you ARE both fortunate and blessed.
lc

[quote="M6RV6"]Maybe just a dumb question from a dumb asker??
But why does a captain who fly's 10 days a month with all expenses paid, all time spent for training is paid and gets free rides to where ever for life, feel he is worth over a 6 figures a year? Especially when they retire they still make as much as when they were working?
Just what are you guys bitching about?
Now I have some good friends that are in this situation. Also have some good friends that are retired Government Employees with the same set up.
Now I did not follow that route nor did I ever think I should, and some of you may think I have a little envy going on here.
Maybe a little as I look back, but I'm pretty happy with me! If I did not have 4 ex wives, and had been a little more aware when things went south a few years ago I would have the same income with out ever having a retirement/ 401K/ pension.
Usually cost me the same if I fly myself or if I fly on a smoker.
Usually always come out ahead if someone goes along with me.
I think the times of living with EXCESS is maybe coming to an end?
I know I'm going to have to cut some extras from my life.
I do not think the government, or private company's can pay you top wages while you work and also pay you top wages when you are retired, just does not make sense to me??
Maybe that's why most of those airlines filed??


I dunno,

Why can a big city cop make over a hundred grand. Why do some firemen work 9 days a month and make way over $100 grand? Why do dock workers in NYC earn over $120,000.00 per year. Why do harbor boat pilots make over $300,000.00 a year. Why does some Cuban born kid whose only talent is the ability to hit home runs make $20 million bucks a year? Why? I don't know. I've never been one to resent anyones ability to earn a high salary.....nor jealous of those that do.

As for airline captains. Let's begin by saying that only old guys like myself after 35 years of seniority could hold 10 day a month schedules.....which by the way equaled 80 hours a month flight time...same as the junior pilot flying 20 days a month with terrible schedules.....80 hours per month either way. The average airline puke is working at least 15 days a month. Those are average 11 hours days. Comes to 40 hours a week any way you figure it....not counting another 100 hour per month in a motel rooms. Also passenger carrying airline pilots only get paid when the engines are running, when they are productive. All that other time is off the clock.

How about the fact that the nation's MAJOR airline pilots have the highest I.Q average of ANY profession? How about the fact that MAJOR airline pilots have a 4 year degree and many with advanced degrees. How about the fact that unless they were ex-military they spent about $150,000.00 on education and flight training? How about the fact that many spent years at starvation wages before catching what (used to be) the Golden Ring? How about the fact that they spend 1/2 their careers as copilots making 1/2 what a senior captain makes. Maybe because airline pilots are the most accountable, constantly trained, checked and monitored professionals in the world. Maybe because they bet their career everytime they take a checkride. Maybe because their career can be ended with one bad EKG. or an unfortunate accident. Maybe because of the 100 kids who would like to be a fighter pilot...only one makes it. Maybe because the Air Force spends over a million bucks to train a pilot, then the airlines hire the best of the bunch and spend hundreds of thousands more on training and checking throughout their careers. Maybe because of the 40 pilots in my airline new hire class, many of which were ex military, only 21 of us passed the training and kept our employement. Maybe it is because....just maybe those guys and gals up front are highy educated,trained, intelligent, possessors of knowledge and skills honed to a level that the average person does not have nor can fully appreciate.

But bottom line is....who else in the civilian world is placed in command of a $100,000,000.00 machine....launched to 41,000ft., moves along at nearly 600 mph can accomplish landings in weather with zero ceiling and 300 ft. forward visibilities ...with hundreds of lives in their hands. Who else has the potential to kill hundreds of people every time they go to work? Just one dumbass mistake and it can and does happen. I sort of think maybe they deserve to be highly compensated. And by the way. Airline pilot salaries today are about 60% of what they were 30 years ago in purchasing power. Maybe you want your family on board with a high school drop out, ner do well, being paid $25,000.00 per year at the controls. Not me thank you. Did we learn anything after the commuter crash in Buffalo N.Y. Did we learn anything after Sully splashed down in the Hudson? Did we learn anything after the United DC-10 crashed at Sioux City Iowa....."Flying" an airplane with out any flight controls what so ever? Half the passengers survived an airline flight in a jumbo jet that ....."couldn't be flown" Who do you want in the cockpit when all hell breaks loose?

As for retirement...there isn't an airline pilot alive whose retirement income equals their max earnings....unless they made some very wise investments beyond their retirement package over the years. The typical retirement package is about 60% of pre-retirement income. For a high percentage of the current generation pilots it won't come close to 50%.

Pilot salaries and airline employee salaries have never been the problem When Braniff airlines went out of business....management had made so many bad decisions that if EVERYONE at Braniff worked for free....they would have still been bankrupt. Corporate raiders destroyed Eastern airlines, Old Continental, Frontier and TWA among others.

You did not ask a dumb question but your facts are inaccurate. I spent one third of my career during the era of high salaries, high air fares and high quality service. Saw it go from a glamourous service to an airborne bus line. I watched the industry deteriorate to a point of embarassment. And by the way I personally made out just fine. Simply said ...I mourn the loss of a proud heritage.

This thead was all about lousy airline service which I agree is a fact. It wasn't about pilot salaries and they are not the cause of poor service or airline financial difficulties. CHEAP AIRFARES ARE THE PROBLEM.

Bob

Sorry...

...about the format above. I must have punched the wrong button. And no...I never learned to spell. Now...back to backcountry flying.

Blue Skies.

Bob

Tadpole wrote:

lowflybye wrote:That is why a 727 (and others) have a tail stand. FedEx / UPS and others use nose gear straps on the other aircraft models...keeps the aircraft from doing a stationary wheelie. : )

that requires more man hours to use.....

I know you were being sarcastic, but in all reality it takes less time than hooking up the pushback tug...used to do it all the time when I was a rampie at FedEx back in my college days. We always loaded the tail first...hard to load front to back when the cargo door is up front...so a nosewheel strap or a tailstand were a must do item. I have seen more than one nosewheel strap pulled tight when the tail got heavy. As a side note, when the nose straps are replaced after useful life they make excellent tow straps for off road vehicles...the vehicle will break before the strap does.