I don’t think rock climbing, kayaking or back country flying are necessarily too risky to do with a family. Just don’t pay attention to the exciting adventure airplane and climbing videos, listen to your wife and kids instead, that’s why married men live longer than single men. Do what they want to do, not what you want to do (including fly-ins). Your kids are lucky to grow up with a dad who can fly them places, so take them on family appropriate adventures, not dad's personal aviation challenge. Forget about the flying part, take them where you’ll find friendly dogs, ice cream and hot showers.

Absolutely agree on maintenance, training and judgement. And for your building project, reliability should always be more important than money or performance, the best family airplanes are boring airplanes. (mine was a C206)


Thanks for reminding me of when I had a young family and a great airplane, good times.

A very interesting topic. Faith, family and flying. It's a delicate balance. Whether you are father to one or a dozen, it's a great responsibility. Flying to me is freedom, it clears my mind and gives me a renewed desire and energy to become a better person, a more loving father and caring husband. To land a backcountry strip is a spiritual experience that keeps on giving. To do it with friends or family is heavenly.

When I fly to the backcountry, I weigh the risks very carefully, I read, I study, I compare the landing site and conditions to what I know the airplane is capable of. I read and digest and find out for myself if the techniques taught by Contact Flyer and others are true. I have also learned an incredible amount from a local legend, the Flying Hawkes. There is no substitute for being boots on the ground first with a precision flyer.

I use flaps. I use the setting appropriate for the occasion and airstrip.

Last but not least I say a prayer. As always my life is now in the Lord's Hands. I have prepared myself the best I know how. I ask him to help the airplane and me to function properly. He continually blesses me and I praise His name.

I to have lost friends and acquaintances. It isn't a fun experience.

In summary, I hold on as tight as I can. Holding on tight does not make you lose the edge, it makes you sharp and creates the edge. Your responsibilities produce an advantage that when combined with accumulated experience is hard to duplicate any other way. To me that is a reality.

Never weaken, but press on! Faith, family and keep on flying.

Richard

After I read about the mid air at JC a couple years ago, I was struggling with this big time! I didn't say anything to my wife out of fear that she would reinforce my newborn fear of hurting my little boys in an airplane accident. After a few days, she realized that someting was eating on me and we talked about it. Much to my surprise, she told it was unfair to not fly with our kids. She reminded me that I am a different, better, stronger, happier person when I am so engrossed in aviation. It is my passion! My best memories are flying my 172 with my Grandpa as a kid. I want that for my kids. She also reminded me that with her having MS and our kids having life threatening food allergies, it's important that we live life to the fullest and share our passions with each other. The moral of my story: Life is short and bad things happen to good people for no reason, enjoy the things that make you feel alive inside but try not to be an idiot in the process!

I really appreciate everything that has been said. Each post made me think and I wish I could respond with my thoughts to each of them. That would take a lot of time and I doubt you guys want to read it anyways.

I am surprised that the discussion turned to religion so quickly. I do appreciate that and will simply say I have faith in God and try to live my life in a manner that keeps both Him and I happy.

I need to evaluate the reasons I fly. Do I fly because it is cool and few people do it or is it because I truly love it. I know I loved flying 10 years ago and I made huge sacrifices to make it happen but now has fear and doubt destroyed that passion? I don’t know; I sure hope not.

clippwagon wrote:Faith in God. Living for the moment (not the past or the "what if" in the future). A good life insurance policy. Proficiency. Competence. A risk benefit assessment.

I struggle with balancing living for the moment and risk benefit assessment. I need to remember living for the moment doesn’t mean acting without considering the consequences.

55wagon wrote:don't live trying not to die.

Don’t think it can be said any better.

55wagon wrote:Many years ago a man was going about some business in the town of Austin.
Rounding the corner he saw the angel of death amongst the crowd. The reaper turned, pointed, and looked at him with a look that chilled him to the core.
The man was frightened and turned and ran as fast as he could to a friends house.
He explained what had happened and asked to borrow his friends horse as he was getting out of there as quickly as possible.
He left everything and headed towards El Paso.
Later that evening the mans friend saw the angel of death as well. Discovering it was not his time he asked the reaper,
"Why did you scare my friend as you did earlier". He replied. " I wasn't trying to scare him. I was just shocked to see him here since I have an appointment with him in El Paso in 3 days".

Thanks for the laugh.

Cary, your’s is a story that I’d like to not repeat. I can’t imagine my kids growing up without me. Thank you for sharing.

I don’t see the same level of risk with the other activities I participate in. I think the danger in those other activities are more self inflicted that those in aviation. Sure an avalanche will kill me just as fast as an airplane engine failure but it would be likely that I caused the avalanche and not the engine failure. I feel like I can mitigate the risks of those other activities to a comfortable level and I’m trying to figure out how to do the same with aviation.

I've lost friends and an instructor, and have struggled with this too. The answer for me has been in the specifics, in the continuous reevaluation of my personal minimums. Mine increased after an engine failure with my wife and 7 year old on board. That ended with a successful landing at an airport, thanks in part to superior piloting skills and dumb luck. Here are some of the things I added to my minimums after that:

I gave up night flight. I still keep night current, just so I can do it if I need to, but I no longer plan trips that will begin or end in total darkness.

I follow roads through the mountains whenever I can unless there’s a better option for handling an engine out situation (e.g, significantly less time over hostile terrain). That’s not possible for much of the best flying we’re talking about here, but it’s something you can do to add to your options on long cross countries.

I fly higher than I used to. Altitude = options. This is different than the way I was taught to fly through the passes and down in the drainages, and not nearly as fun, but, as long as the weather allows it, being higher when transitioning over rugged terrain adds to the safety margin. I still get to do the canyon part on approach and departure.

I will do VFR on top only if the layer is thin and there’s at least 1,000 of clear air and hospitable terrain below. Otherwise, I fly around the area of coverage.

When departing an airport surrounded by hostile terrain, I circle for altitude before turning on course. One extra climbing 360 gets me another thousand or so feet of altitude. If something goes wrong, I have more time and options and a better chance of returning to the airport.

When departing my home airport, I don’t take the standard departure that immediately goes over a large body of water at low altitude. Instead, I fly down the shore and then follow a bridge with nearby levees across the water.

I bought a pair of nomex pants and a nomex shirt. When the new engine was finally installed, I flew 15 hours on it by myself, in VFR conditions around airports before I took anyone else in the plane, wearing the nomex the whole time. I don’t wear the nomex now unless it’s for a flight review, when I know we’ll be pushing things. I would like to have my family similarly outfitted for backcountry adventures, but the message that sends to them isn’t exactly positive. So I settle for telling them not to wear any synthetics and to go for long pants and sleeves unless it going to be hot. When my son and I fly to Alaska (hopefully next year), we’ll be wearing the Nomex.

Finally, out of consideration for my wife, I plan our trips for early morning hours in order to minimize time spent in turbulence. She was terrified by the engine out episode, and I’m lucky that she still flies at all, so that seems like a reasonable concession. I don’t like getting knocked around that much myself.

These are in addition to a whole host of other minimums, like not pushing the envelope on high DA operations when I can wait out the heat and wind, minimum risk flights immediately after maintenance, checking the engine at the beginning of the summer in addition to the annual, avoiding high traffic areas and events etc.

Some of the new self-imposed restrictions make it harder to get the most out of limited weekends and vacation time. Giving up night flight is the biggest hit in terms of utility. Following roads on long cross country trips takes more time. Overall, though, I am happy with the new balance. We still go places and I still love to fly. We’ve been all around the West and had a great trip down to Baja back in March, so it’s not a total straight jacket.

YMMV. My minimums are my own. I'm not offering them here as any kind of gospel, or suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't smart or safe. If there's something useful in them for you, then good. I expect that some of the 135 guys will laugh or shake their heads at my minimums. That's ok. I have the luxury of being an amateur and see no reason not to take advantage of the flexibility that I'm fortunate enough to have in order to tip the odds in my favor a bit.

There's no shame in admitting to experiencing some fear. Lord knows I've had my moments. The answer for me has been in the specifics. So, what are your minimums? Are there things you do or have done in the past that you can modify or skip entirely without giving up on this amazing activity? There are so many great resources for learning this stuff-instructors, NTSB reports, personal misadventures, hangar flying etc. I had no idea when I took my first lesson that it would be so important, and so much fun. Good luck with it all.

CAVU

whee wrote:How do you mitigate the risk when backcountry flying with your family? You can't mitigate it all so how do you deal with the remaining risk?

CAVU's excellent post above made me think of a practice I've long since been taught, made habit, and it's become subconscious. So I forgot I do it! Hah. It's second nature:

As I fly over rough terrain, I am constantly looking for places I think I could 'maybe' land the Bearhawk if I tried. It's almost like a game for off-airport pilots.

Instead of concentrating on the air traffic (there is none in the real backcountry), I am constantly looking for the next spot - it must be within gliding distance, and appear to be safe for a forced landing which would limit the damage and be survivable.

This might be a smooth section of ridge, a tiny river bar, shallow waters, a grassy flat area, a beach... not places the plane will necessarily fly back out of, but places I can set down and trust the steel roll cage to keep the accident 100% survivable.

When I can't see such a place, and I have especially precious cargo aboard, that's my cue to change the situation immediately. Climb higher, deviate my course, move to the other side of the valley - do something to improve the odds - if the engine started to fail right that second....

That is basically my acid test, which I apply most every time I fly with passengers.

If you don't trust your equipment 100% and you don't trust you skill level for the flight ahead 100% stay on the ground. If you have second thoughts stay home. You need to be on your game when you go flying. If you are flying and worrying about you or the kids or? dying on this trip you will not be in any shape to go flying. You are either ready physically, mentally and mechanically to go flying or you are not.
If you climb into the plane worried about some one dying on this trip you know the answer is to stay home.
Fear most often can be replaced with good training and good equipment.
KenW

Most of us likely feel apprehension at times. Our kids are just leaving the nest. We flew with them from infants to adults. When not flying, I'd think about the risk I was taking with all us - not comforting. However, I didn't feel it when actually flying.

Certainly I fly more conservatively with them in the plane, but still do all the BC strips, etc.

Consider you will be flying an aircraft the lands slow, is a steel cage, and can be set down in a short area. All those things help mitigate the risk. Is the pilot on his game? If not, don't fly, as others have said. Build your plane as designed and with a well built, reliable motor. Stay away from one-off modifications. Stay as standard as possible. Consider that Some decisions you are making today might be adding to the apprehension.

Live life, live large, and enjoy every day for what it is; a gift to be experienced and enjoyed. The alternative isn't an option for most of us on this forum. After all, that's why we are here and do what we do.

Good thread: After 31 years of fighting structure fires I had to learn how to deal with the same issues you are. About 2-3% of the firefighters moved to a desk or went off on stress, they could not mentally do the job anymore.

Faith for me is huge.

Some one said if you have sweaty palms you shouldn't fly, hahaha thats me.

If you don't trust your plane and your self 100% don't go? For me, I am a bit looser I'll say 90%

10-12 times your annual wage in level term life insurance till your family is all grown up. (Dave Ramsey)

Lastly, All men die, but not all men live. Live each day to the fullest!

Cheers...Rob

I've had a lifelong passion for aviation, unfulfilled until very recently.

I was lucky enough to become a father and financially comfortable in the same year. I decided not to pursue my love of aviation because I didn't feel the risk was worth it.

Now I'm a student pilot at 49 and my kids are 16 and 13 and I regret waiting so long.

After I had kids I continued to climb rock and the occasional mountain, but my tolerance for risk changed. I started to wear a helmet. I bought an avalanche backpack for snowmobiling and I started to carry a real survival kit for solo backcountry motorcycle trips. When people would question my adventures I'd always say that living is the only thing worth dying for.

Six months ago I realized the same credo applied to flying and I've been having a wonderful time indulging my longing for flight.

I've promised myself that I will be cautious and well trained. I hope and pray never to perish in a plane crash but I can think of worse things to hear at a funeral than 'He died doing something he loved'.

The risk/reward ratio is one of life's hard fast laws. It applies to flying as much as it applies to finances and relationships. I don't want my kids to live a life without the rewards attached to risk, so I try to set an example.

Conversely, when my kids want to engage in behaviour with risks attached, I usually give my blessings with a request for some degree of caution.

Ask yourself, If your children come to you one day, in love with aviation, and say they want to learn to fly, would you tell them no because it is too risky?

OregonMaule wrote:Good thread: After 31 years of fighting structure fires I had to learn how to deal with the same issues you are. About 2-3% of the firefighters moved to a desk or went off on stress, they could not mentally do the job anymore.

Faith for me is huge.

Some one said if you have sweaty palms you shouldn't fly, hahaha thats me.

If you don't trust your plane and your self 100% don't go? For me, I am a bit looser I'll say 90%

10-12 times your annual wage in level term life insurance till your family is all grown up. (Dave Ramsey)

Lastly,

All men die, but not all men live. Live each day to the fullest!

Cheers...Rob

There are a quite a few things that Rob and I agree on, But the last statement above,

All men die, but not all men live. Live each day to the fullest!

Has to be one of the most important things in my life! I don't keep up to a lot of folks, but I try to maintain this in my life, This does not mean you have to be the most daredevil out there, just enjoy life as it comes to you !! It is what you make it!!

Aot of activities are inherirantly risky, flying very high on that list. But as others have pointed out, you can mitigate that risk by making sure you & your equipment are prepared. I would say make sure your skills and equipment are up to snuff, and also to continually assess the risk-vs-reward of what you're doing.

Some people however are just not happy unless they are pushing the envelope. I know a couple pilots like that. One guy ended up nearly being killed when a fly-by went wrong and he collided with a hangar. Someone else I know has been in two airplane crashes and a motorcycle crash in the past few years- he consistently pushes the weather (and other conditions) in his flying and so it wouldn't surprise me if he kills himself one of these days. Hopefully he won't take anyone else with him. I know a couple other edge-pushers also that I kind of expect to become a statistic one of these days.

Its normal to feel this way for certain. My own life is pretty risky to say the least. I get this same feeling every time I venture into the mountains with 10 feet of new snow on the ground after we have been sitting for the last 7 days and the 60 plus clients in house are itching to go. I start avalanches for a living. Landing on remote peaks with a helicopter has gives me sweaty palms as well. Taking on the responsibility for all of those that come to visit can make a guy crazy.

When we go to Antarctica each year, we are traveling in the most heavily glaciated place on the planet on foot. Its spooky to say the least. Add a 100 people to the mix...

Traveling overseas to a part of the world that I dont necessary trust is really spooky to me...

I no longer skydive, really only because I need to manage my risks. After 2000 plus jumps and never having a malfunction I got gear fear. Its a numbers game and I really did not want to deal with that at 150 plus MPH hurling toward the ground. With good training you can mitigate that as well but...at least in an airplane your going to glide and hopefully my training will land me safely. Kudos to Mtn Matt! Obviously you still cannot control the mid air, eagle flying through your window etc. Nor can you mitigate the guy that runs a red light.

My two kids factor in on a lot of this along with my beautiful wife...

Its dangerous to cross the street. Or for that matte ride your bike down the road. RIP Noreen...

You have to live. Like others said above, keep your plane in tip top condition and train yourself.

If you dont have some sort of fear your not normal.

I spend nights with sweaty palms knowing that..."Damn I have to take a bunch of pilots to High Boy tomorrow" or "Shit, Mile High and Dewey Moore is on the agenda tomorrow" "Soldier Bar"...an engine out in any of those places would ruin your day. But going in there knowing my plane is in top condition I find solace in that. And then you really feel alive after doing such.

Same goes for skiing for me..."The big peaks are up tomorrow" "we have waited for conditions to be perfect and here it is" "Go Time" Experience and training allows for you to do such.

How do you get the experience? Go with those that know or for some like myself (Im a bull in a china shop) go get it and do it with as much knowledge as you can obtain prior and then rehearse it over and over.

When I played professional hockey I remember as a kid being tought about mental preparation. Close your eyes and live the moment. Feel the wind in your hair, smell the smells, rehearse the moment in every detail. When the time comes to do it, you have really almost been there already. Im a big believer in that. Heck, I already have 500 hours in my new SQ...

We have had a lot of airplane incidents with many that are close to us. You read about one almost daily. I have seen way to many in the past 5 years alone and I am certain we will continue to see such. If your on all of the airplane forums, attend all the flying functions it just the nature of the beast. Try to learn from each. I cannot wait to read Matts report on his engine out. What happened etc. Things are going to happen. Just be prepared the best you can. The other option is to sit on your couch all day and eat pringles and hope that a plane does not land on your roof or a car comes through the window or a lightning bolt doesn't come down on ya or the tree does not fall...I could go on and on...

Anyhow, I really think your feeling the very same thing that all of us feel. You gotta live. Questioning yourself and your feelings is completely normal. Your a pilot buddy!

Stay fired up!


AKT

Whee,

I really agree wholeheartedly with all the above encouragement. That said, you're in the process of building an airplane, plus doing all those family things. Maybe the near future would be an appropriate time to take a break from flying, and use the work on the plane to satisfy your aviation itch.

Give it a period of time and then see how much you miss flying. If that's the case, then you just have to understand that flying is all about risk management, and follow the good advice offered in this thread.

On the other hand, if you realize after a period of time that you really don't miss flying, then maybe it's time to hang up the wings and call it a part of your past. And, that's okay as well. Aviation for recreation is all about passion. To me at least, it's costly enough in a whole lot of ways that you really need to have a passion for the flying to make it worthwhile.

If you don't have that passion, then there are lots of other endeavors (some even safer) that you can participate in with your family.

I took a break from flying while in college. After a couple years, I REALLY wanted to get back into the air. And, it wasn't like I had lots of free time or $$$ at the time.

Take a break and see how you really feel about flying. I'm betting you'll be back in the air, and following the good advice offered in this thread.

MTV

Hey Whee,

Thought I would add to the mix as well. Sounds like we are very similar, but in different stages of life. Like many of the folks that have contributed previously I also have a "risky" job. I have been a whitewater, guide/outfitter for 35 years and in the off season have worked in the ski industry for the same amount of time, all while raising a family in that environment. I am fairly new to flying (Just took my first BFR) but have approached it the same way as everything else I have done. I haven't lost any pilot friends, but have lost close friends and acquaintances to both skiing and whitewater. The hard facts are that if we have a passion for something that has a low tolerance for mistakes there can be consequences. The question/struggle is how to enjoy the things we love and not kill ourselves or our loved ones AND not be worried sick the whole time. It's a pretty tight balancing act, with no guarantees and it's not for everyone. Aside from good equipment, training, practice, ect. I have also relied on a couple of other things that I think have contributed to my still being here. First, even though many of the people I know consider the things I do are a bit nuts, almost everything I do is a very calculated risk. First I look at the what if. If I screw up or I have some sort of equipment failure, what are my chances? If they are not near 100% I may give it a go, but I am sure as hell not exposing my family or customers to that level of risk. There are many cases where the odds of something going wrong are very small, but the consequences are not. Those are situations to be very careful in and to keep your family out of. Also, if I don't think my equipment, abilities or training are up to the task, I'm out. Over the years I have also learned to be vary wary about my comfort level. Being comfortable in your activity is just fine, but complacency is right around the corner. Almost every time I have drifted to complacent I have gotten my ass kicked. All three of my daughters are whitewater guides and to be honest I worry about them all the time, but I do know the odds of something going terribly wrong are pretty slim and they are doing what they love. In the urban/suburban world we live in it's a huge gift to be able to expose your kids to something that 99% of the people in our country will never get a chance to do. Sure, it comes with a dose of risk, but managed properly it's really pretty small. Is it worth it? That's up to the individual. The bottom line is that a healthy dose of concern/worry is human nature and just fine. When that crosses the line to - I'm not having fun any more - it may be time to re-evaluate, and that is just fine too. Don't fret it too much. Do what you think is right for you and have fun.

Another thought on 'real v perceived' risk.

I was thinking about a friend of mine this morning who spent a lot of years towing banners behind a rotax two-stroke powered ultralight over the beaches of Mexico.

By his estimate he's had 15-20 engine failures.

Watching him plan and pre-flight a 200nm journey through the mountains his current plane, a Cessna 182, you can see an acute paranoia about the same thing happening.

Who knows, maybe he's the smarter pilot. But he's a great guy and I enjoy his company so I'm just glad he found a way to keep flying.

I was born and raised in an aviation family. I spent my childhood watching skydiving from the ground as my Dad flew load after load of skydivers in his various jump planes. At the age of 11 I met my best friend, his dad was a local pilot and he lived right across the street from the airport. We both had the same aviation itch. We couldn"t wait to be old enough to learn to fly and skydive.

We both started hang gliding at age 14, pilot lessons at 15, and skydiving at 16. We built and flew every type of model airplane, toy parachute and kite you can imagine.

Our skydiving careers ran parralell and we became skydiving instructors and team mates on a 4 way skydiving team. Skydiving was our life.

We both got married within a couple of years of each other, he started a family, and I married a ready made family becoming a stepfather to 3 great kids.

I continued to jump and he faded away. He, Like you, was putting his family first. He went to a job he hated everyday for 35 years, gave up his favorite hobby, and became an angry person.

We still see each other , he is extremely proud of his boys, he did a great job as a father, but he is not the same man he was . He lives his life angry, He sometimes talks about making a few jumps again, I see the excitement in his eyes, then he dissapears again.

He may have been a better father if he was happier and had some fullfillment in life.

cliff wrote:I was born and raised in an aviation family. I spent my childhood watching skydiving from the ground as my Dad flew load after load of skydivers in his various jump planes. At the age of 11 I met my best friend, his dad was a local pilot and he lived right across the street from the airport. We both had the same aviation itch. We couldn"t wait to be old enough to learn to fly and skydive.

We both started hang gliding at age 14, pilot lessons at 15, and skydiving at 16. We built and flew every type of model airplane, toy parachute and kite you can imagine.

Our skydiving careers ran parralell and we became skydiving instructors and team mates on a 4 way skydiving team. Skydiving was our life.

We both got married within a couple of years of each other, he started a family, and I married a ready made family becoming a stepfather to 3 great kids.

I continued to jump and he faded away. He, Like you, was putting his family first. He went to a job he hated everyday for 35 years, gave up his favorite hobby, and became an angry person.

We still see each other , he is extremely proud of his boys, he did a great job as a father, but he is not the same man he was . He lives his life angry, He sometimes talks about making a few jumps again, I see the excitement in his eyes, then he dissapears again.

He may have been a better father if he was happier and had some fullfillment in life.

Wow one of the best opines I have read in awhile!!

The guys I know who used to be pilots, and are no more, seem to suffer a decline in overall quality of life. At least that's the view point coming from a guy who's long divorced and kid is getting old herself so sure doesn't need me babysitting her. Every time the ex checks in from Hawaii she asks if I'm still flying I just laugh and say "not since a couple hours ago", THEN she asks about any new gal pals.

You guys with the little rug rats expecting you to come home every day, I got no answers for you, just hang in there I guess until you get older, life gets a lot easier. If I had to do it all again, I'd just get a real good life insurance policy and go for it, it being flying.

Thanks again everyone. I've got lots to think about. I really appreciate all the encouragement and you all sharing your stories. Wish I could thank each of you individually. One thing I can say, when I step into the garage and see the airplane sitting there I feel excitement again! I'm stoked for that.