Nicely put Z3. I fly with a lot of pilots but few aviators.

While the "glory days" may be gone, there is good money to be made once your at the major airline level. Another thing to factor in is the other side of the "commuting and gone four days at a time" coin. When I am home, I am home. There is no work to bring home. I can essentially unplug if I wish. All I need to know is when I need to be back at base...and maybe where I am overnighting so I can pack accordingly. No job is a utopia, but I've been home for two weeks after dropping a trip with pay and spent the whole time with my kids and flying my 205. Not a bad gig. I'm dreading going back to work, especially since it starts with 24 hours in Cancun. Oh well, guess someone has to do it.

Seriously though, once your dues are paid it isn't a bad life. Even if you commute like I choose to do (Utah to JFK) it isn't horrible. I actually have a better QOL commuting to JFK than I would commuting to a closer base due to relative seniority, which equals holidays off and better, higher paying trips. If you choose to live in domicile, earning potential and QOL does go up. Having the option to live where you want is a plus.

I'll add a couple of things to Z3's comments. There will be a few exemptions to the 1500 hr minimum. My understanding is that attending one of a few part 141 schools will allow you to get hired with fewer hours. What I remember reading or hearing is half (750).

Personally, I think that a sort of perfect storm has been created and something is going to have to give. High cost of learning to fly with the ever looming threat of user fees, low interest because of the low pay for entry level jobs, the new 1500 hr rule...combined with the massive shortages coming...something will have to give. Mergers and consolidations can only offer so much relief. The majors will suck up the qualified pilots, leaving the regionals wondering where they are going to find pilots. One would hope that this will drive wages up across the board, but that isn't going to happen without the public paying more than $99 to go coast to coast. It is going to be interesting to see what happens. Like I said before, I believe those already in or poised to be qualified to be hired should reap the rewards. I know that my company is concerned about pilot retention and we are seeing some movement on issues they have been dragging their feet on. This tells me that the situation has some gravity to it.

I should note. I had no intention of being an airline pilot. Flew shrimping spotter planes, infrared/smoke jumpers for the USFS (where I planned on being for a career), and corporate. Never dreamed of flying big metal and would be happy flying a 182 if it paid what I make flying the bus. But now that I am here, it is a good gig...even opted to stay when I had the chance to go back to the USFS.

Grasstrip....

...thanks for adding meaningful, real world information. Especially when coming from one who is a generation after my own. Someone who is out there now, in the youth of their career and is not looking at the world through the Rose Colored glasses of past glory.

I must add that like you I would have been happy at almost any level of aviation. As a 23 year old I was flying copilot on a DH-125 corporate jet. The company that I flew for was and remain this day a wonderful employer. Pilots who remained with them have had very nice lives and decades of steady employement. I would have stayed there in total contentment, if at age 24,the airline opportunity had not come my way ..... 41 years ago next month.

I was blessed in that after one year I was able to spend the remaining 34+ years in my domicile of choice: never having once commuted and living only 50 miles from the airport....despite a career of 2 mergers, 3 airlines and 3 bankruptcies. Like I said LUCKY. But as you have indicated....commuting is a choice. Every airline has domiciles and pilots have the option of living there...10 minutes from the airport if they wish.

Enough from a "has been." Best wishes to you personally and your lovely family. Good luck to all who still dream of making their lives in the skies.

Bob

Lowflying G3.

Kuddos to you as well. I had overlooked your posting before responding to Grasstrip. Excellent comments from one who represents another aspect of aviation, remains open minded and informed. You children are lucky to have such a wise and supportive father.

My wife and I are feeling a bit guilty,these past couple of years, given the turn around in pilot demand. Our youngest son got his private on his 17th birthday and instrument at age 18. He wanted to be an airline pilot. About that time United, Delta, Northwest and USAirways filed for bankruptcy....and my airline hit me with a 20% pay cut. We decided that the airline future was a lousy one. So we, in conjunction with our son, decided to forget about commercial aviation and send him to law school. 7 years later he has completed undergrad, got his BS and recieved his JD after 3 years of Law School. He passed the bar and is among the lucky few to have immediately been hired by a good law firm at the tender age of 25.

Wouldn't you know it....the legal profession is overwhelmed with law grads, unemployment among new attorneys is running at 50% and the pay is modest to start with. Now professional aviation is set to boom. Had he continued his quest to follow in dad's footsteps he would be sitting in the catbird seat today, a regional jet copilot, among the first wave of "new hire" major airline pilots in the next few years. So....sometimes we feel that we gave him bad advice. But such is life. In the final analysis he made the choice, addmittedly with dad and mom's perspective ringing in his ears.

Best wishes for the future generation.

bob

Just to put a real number on the "pay your dues" end of the equation, Mesa airlines is running an ad for pilots.
After you have accumulated 1500 hours they will pay you $22.18/ flight hour for a guaranteed 75.83 hours per month which works out to $1681.91 a month. Minimum, plus per diem. But you are sitting in the right seat of a jet.

Here are some more real numbers. Once at a regional, if things are going well in the industry, I'd plan on being there at least 5 years. Less if up grades are quick and the hiring vacuum at the majors is on, more if it isn't. Don't plan on making more than $50-60K at five year longevity. Less if you are still in the right seat. After 5 years at my first airline, which was one of the better at the time, I barely broke $50K...then they went out if business and I started again at the bottom of another regional. The only way we survived it was the fact that my wife had a good government job and made enough to cover our expenses with a little left over. She was my safety net. We also had no kids at the time.

Now the good news with some real numbers. First year at a major airline you should be in the $60-70k range. There are some exceptions out there. First year pay is typically less at any airline. Second year takes a significant jump. By year 3-4 you should be near or over six figures and increasing yearly. Of course how long you are on reserve will have a significant impact on this. Also, living in domicile opens up more opportunities to make money, as well as increases your time at home...which increases QOL. Days off should be in the 15-18 days per month.

From here, each company is different. At some you may spend 10+ years in the right seat and at others you may have the opportunity to upgrade early. It becomes a balancing act between QOL and cash, and each individual has to choose what works best for their situation.

Anyway, hope this helps.

deleted

FYI, the most recent proposal on the requirement for an ATP to fly for a 121 operator (airline) is that a "Provisional Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate" will be available to graduates of military flight training at 700 hours PIC, and to graduates of four year university or college aviation degree programs with FAR Part 141 flight training at 1000 hours.

The provisional ATP will permit the holder to work as a first officer in a part 121 airline operation until they have sufficient PIC time to qualify for the "regular" ATP.

Lowflyin, Z3 and Grasstrip have all offered great perspective on the "real world" of flying for a living. I worked in a job where flying was a "collateral duty", but it in fact occupied a significant percentage of my working days. I found the variety of that job to be fantastic. I'm easily bored, and there was never any boredom in my work life in that job.

The point is, as Lowflyin noted, there are literally dozens of careers out there, in addition to the airlines, that will pay you to fly airplanes. On the other hand, an old friend of mine, who was a very accomplished orthodontist, told me once that he had the best flying job in the world. I questioned his logic, and he pointed out that he made plenty of money, could therefore afford to own an airplane, and fly when HE wanted to fly. His work schedule was his to set, as well.

I always loved Ernie Gann's quote which Z3 cited: " A pilot is a mere technician. An aviator is an artist in love with flight." I was always baffled by the pilots I worked with and around who viewed aviation as "just a job" or a way to get a bump in pay.......I too always wanted to be an aviator, not a mere pilot. And, one need not receive a paycheck to be a true "aviator".

MTV

Thanks MTV,

Great perspective and I am glad that you were able to steer the discussion away from the heavy metal flying a bit. I am curious about the provisional ATP and the ability of one to fly as F/O under part 121 until they get the required PIC time to gain a real ATP. I could imagine that some airlines would type rate their F/Os in equipment they are flying so that they could log the time "manipulating" the controls as PIC time....not to be confused with "captain" time. Is that a possible process? Can a pilot be type rated who does not have an ATP? I guess so but have never been up on the FARs beyond necessity. Seems that many pilots actually gain the ATP when they become type rated, assuming they have the written passe and meet all of the other requirements.

Having been hired at a 121 carrier in a era (1972) when there was very little hiring.... everyone in my class and those that followed had thousands of hours of PIC time. So it was not an issue for us. However in the years proceeding there had been a bit of a pilot shortage and some guys were hired with only a few hundred hours of total time. Indeed TWA and United hired a few zero time pilots in the mid sixties and provided them with all the necessary training and ratings. They upgraded to captain and got type rated as their seniority allowed. Until this moment I never wondered how they got the PIC time necessary to obtain an ATP. Historically the airlines did not type rate their first officers, except on widebody international crews. So my thought about type rated F/Os gaining PIC by manipulating the controls didn't happen that way back then. How much PIC time is required for and ATP anyhow? I could look it up but you are very familiar with the FARs and I am lazy!

Thanks,

Bob

I have not read all of the responses to this forum so if this has already been said please forgive me. If it is what you want to do then go for it. I lucked up and have a great job in aviation. I grew up on a farm and now get to spray farm land with a really cool bi wing airplane how much better could you ask for. In your case if you have the GI Bill they now pay 100 percent of your training. Some schools down in Florida are even getting you your private license with no out pocket expense. Just be ready to work long hours and do some very degrading work if you are a flight instructor. It really will get better after a while. I did read somebody say go in the tech field, well I have went back and got quite a few IT certifications and now I spray for six months out of the year and then work contractor jobs for six months. May not be the way you wanna go but it is very lucrative if you do it that way. Anyway best of luck.

mtv wrote:I always loved Ernie Gann's quote which Z3 cited: " A pilot is a mere technician. An aviator is an artist in love with flight." I was always baffled by the pilots I worked with and around who viewed aviation as "just a job" or a way to get a bump in pay.......I too always wanted to be an aviator, not a mere pilot. And, one need not receive a paycheck to be a true "aviator".

MTV

Boy Mike that is a very fine line.............I can think of several times when I moved back and forth across that line.

Some great advice here from some of the more seasoned professionals out there. Very interesting to read

I'm still very new at this game but will say it's certainly possible to make a decent living. However, it's not an easy road to take and it's definitely a gamble both financially and on your family. The jobs are out there though and Asia is very much up and coming these days, with many countries needing pilots to fly anything from C208s and DHC6s up to 737s and A330s. I know plenty of guys who've landed some pretty sweet gigs out of Hong Kong and Singapore.

For me, I got lucky. But my lifestyle would never suit family life. And I'm not so sure your wife would approve of the flying with regards to most people's interpretation of "safe"

Good luck!

Grassstrippilot wrote:....Don't plan on making more than $50-60K at five year longevity. Less if you are still in the right seat. After 5 years at my first airline, which was one of the better at the time, I barely broke $50K....... First year at a major airline you should be in the $60-70k range. There are some exceptions out there. First year pay is typically less at any airline. Second year takes a significant jump. By year 3-4 you should be near or over six figures and increasing yearly. .......

Interesting to see these numbers discussed. I'm curious as to what most of you consider "good pay". I am recently retired from a 37 year career as a union sheet metal worker (commercial building trades), and have always thought that I had a well-paying job. Our journeyman wage is right around $44 an hour these days, whch works out to $88K if you work a full 2,000 hour year (which can be pretty hard to do sometimes)-- plus health plan, pension plans, 401K, etc.
I made abut $70K in 2011, which I considered a very good year. I'm unmarried with no kids, but even a married guy should be able to live pretty well on that kind of pay if he is careful with his money, esp if his wife also works (even part-time). $50-60K at 5 years into your career (about like most building trades union apprenticeship programs) sounds pretty good to me. Six figures sounds even better, of course-- I never made anywhere near that much in wages but have managed to live fairly well & accumulate some stuff (couple cars, house, hangar,airplane), all of which is paid for.
I think a big part of "living well" is being careful to live within your means. I know people who make less money than me who sem to live fairly well-- and some people who make more (sometimes much more) but are always broke or have gone through bankruptcies etc.

hotrod150 wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:....Don't plan on making more than $50-60K at five year longevity. Less if you are still in the right seat. After 5 years at my first airline, which was one of the better at the time, I barely broke $50K....... First year at a major airline you should be in the $60-70k range. There are some exceptions out there. First year pay is typically less at any airline. Second year takes a significant jump. By year 3-4 you should be near or over six figures and increasing yearly. .......

Interesting to see these numbers discussed. I'm curious as to what most of you consider "good pay". I am recently retired from a 37 year career as a union sheet metal worker (commercial building trades), and have always thought that I had a well-paying job. Our journeyman wage is right around $44 an hour these days, whch works out to $88K if you work a full 2,000 hour year (which can be pretty hard to do sometimes)-- plus health plan, pension plans, 401K, etc.
I made abut $70K in 2011, which I considered a very good year. I'm unmarried with no kids, but even a married guy should be able to live pretty well on that kind of pay if he is careful with his money, esp if his wife also works (even part-time). $50-60K at 5 years into your career (about like most building trades union apprenticeship programs) sounds pretty good to me. Six figures sounds even better, of course-- I never made anywhere near that much in wages but have managed to live fairly well & accumulate some stuff (couple cars, house, hangar,airplane), all of which is paid for.
I think a big part of "living well" is being careful to live within your means. I know people who make less money than me who sem to live fairly well-- and some people who make more (sometimes much more) but are always broke or have gone through bankruptcies etc.

I agree Hotrod. Where you live makes a difference too. I fly with guys that are paying in excess of $12K per year in property taxes living in the northeast...compared to my $2300.

If my comments seem to come across as inferring that the pay was on the lower end, that wasn't what was intended. Everything is relative and most people have a skewed idea of what airline pay is. While it is still very good in my opinion, it is not what it once was...or what the majority of the public thinks it is. I fly with some guys that think that all pilots on property should be making $200k minimum, work half the year, have health care paid for, and paid retirement/vacation on top of that. Sounds good to me, but it is obviously not realistic. Of course there are those that do make more who are in the left seat and have some longevity. Either way, at the major level, it is a good gig...until you get furloughed or lose your medical.

Regardless, you hit the nail on the head. Be smart with your money, live within your means, and make priorities. We recently bought a plane and when my father-in-law asked what we had to mortgage to get that, I reminded him that we have no debt other than the house and that we don't have a boat, big truck, snowmobiles, camper trailer, etc. that pretty well put it into perspective.

Living within or below ones means,

The very best advise one can recieve and that I have tried to instill within my five kids, with fair success. When my youngest son was about 16 he came home from school one day and said....Dad...some of my friend want to know why we don't have a much bigger and fancier home since you are an airline captain? I chuckled at their concern and answered. "Tell them the house and everything else is paid for." "Your mom and I enjoy the security and freedom that living below our means gives us

Best wishes to all the young folks out there with their entire lives ahead of them.

Bob

Grassstrippilot wrote:........Regardless, you hit the nail on the head. Be smart with your money, live within your means, and make priorities. .......

Good adbvise and a good way to put it. Doesn't that condense into twelve words what Dave Ramsey talks about for hours & hours on the radio?

Very true! But he's making a lot more than I made for those twelve words so he must be smarter than I am!