I have a IFR Cessna 180, and have decided to install a 430W in it to replace a nav-comm and GX-55 GPS.

My plane has 2 KX-155's one with glideslope, one without. It has a GX 55 apollo GPS, and a king DME. I pulled out an old ADF last year to make room for a 496. It also has a S-tec 50 auto pilot.

When I bring it in, should I keep the KX-155 with the glideslope, or the one without. I don't have my IFR rating, but plan to do it this winter. I don't see myself doing a whole lot of flying in the soup, it just does not appeal to me. I want to be able to fly above the clouds when there is a low ceiling, or do some traveling without worring about a small rain event between me and my destination.

Should I get the GPS steering from S-tec when I do the upgrade? It will add a couple thousand dollars to the job, but it seems like it would be priceless when flying IFR. I am leaning towards installing it.

Thanks, Lance

Hi Lance, I am a IFR pilot but no expert. I would couple your new 430W to the S Tec. Redundancy is good so having 2 glide slopes can't hurt if you have the room. You will love the 430W that is what I have.

It took me 6 months over the winter to get my IFR, it is a lot of work. I would do it again. 60/40 in favor.

Cheers...Rob

Hi Lance,

I have an IFR rating as of August 2007, a Maule MX7-180c with Garmin 430, non ifr 250, STEC 50 with GPSS.

The STEC 50 with GPSS is great. I had some initial problems in that the 430 had to be reconfigured before GPSS would work. Make sure it is all working before you get too far from the avionics shop.

Aside from practicing some approaches/holds in low level stratus for currency, I have only used my IFR rating to fly out of Half Moon Bay when the fog rolled in during lunch which is the limit of my comfort because:

My 430 has gone dead twice, once staying dead until taken to the avionics shop for No Trouble Found. My AI has failed and been replaced, my DG has failed and been replaced, my CDI has failed and been replaced. Everything was new as of 2006 and my prop is dynamically balanced. The first time the 430 failed was a rainy night when I was just maintaining night currency. All the other failures were in VMC. The AI was a great failure: it wouldn't erect. The DG was obnoxious: it would suddenly shift (not precess) a large (more than 30) number of degrees (I'm lucky to have a witness, because I have trouble believing that description myself). GPS and ILS would drive the CDI fine, but VOR wouldn't.

My next planned future purchase is a Garmin SL-30 (pulling out the Garmin 250) and another CDI with glideslope. Then I might begin to believe I had redundancy and might begin considering flying in stratus clouds to a destination. Only after that, would I consider upgrading to WAAS, even assuming I had the money.

I'd keep the KX-155 with glideslope.

In terms of rain events, I ventured out for the first time last month into an area of scattered showers/isolated thunderstorms. Just as lightning strikes and virga appeared at 12 o'clock we made a 45 degree turn to our destination; the storm didn't move while we had lunch. We had no intention of going into clouds; in the air, we'd turn around; on the ground, we'd wait. Having done it once on purpose is enough for me.

I used the King training course to prep for the written and got the written out of the way before proceeeding to flight training. I don't know whether you have looked at http://www.overtheairwaves.com/, IFR Refresher, and IFR Magazine. I enjoy them and they do keep making me ask the question: am I proficient enough to fly IFR?

Good luck,
Dick

Just a thought, a 696 in a gizmo would work great, it will drive your ap but it just won't be cert for IFR, have had a couple of 430's there great but expensive. I did not have any problems with the ones I had but that was awhile back.
Go get the IFR, you'll learn more than you think. When you get it use it even if it's vfr have some one ride shotgun and keep current. That means more than just a hold or 2 and an approach every 6 months.
It's just like landing on a realy narrow short crooked strip at hi altitude and high density, If you don't do it alot you get real rusty real quick.
Have fun and run with it, get some real IFR with your instructor, completly different than cav and a hood.Find an old codger that is real comfortable in it.
My $.02
GT

Thanks for the tips, keep em coming!!

Lance

Definately couple the 430 to the autopilot. That combination will fly the course for you, or take you to a waypoint and beyond, all you have to do is control descent on the glide slope. I would suggest altitude hold for your 50 if it does not have it already. It will keep you from breaking altitude and lets you concentrate on other things. Weather in the 430 is also a nice option for trips. I used to make the 600 nm trip from Illinois to Canada a few times every summer, there always seemed to be weather problems on one end or the other. With the weather option, I was given the comfort to go on trips when the weather was somewhat iffy, when without it, I would have waited. The new XM weather is even closer to real time than what was originally available. I have had the 430/autopilot with altitude hold/weather setup in two planes and it has worked well. I still use all these features, even though IFR is out of the picture, since the 185 is on floats full time now.

Getting the instrument rating is challenging, but worthwhile. As mentioned, you have to stay current and that can be difficult unless you work at it, but it might just save your bacon sometime. Good luck. Steve

Yes, the s-tec 50 has altitude hold right now. Is the weather on a 430 any different than the weather on my 496?

The 430 will be coupled to the autopilot, whether or not I add the GPSS option. Right now it is coupled to the GX-55, but I just use it point to point.

Thanks for the help--Lance

Hey Lance

Defintely go for the IR. As others have said, it's a challenge, but that just makes you feel so much better when you finish it. I'd also second the thoughts on doing the written ASAP so you can actually ENJOY some of the flight training. There's so much of the written that no longer applies, like ADF and using other instruments that you will only find in the Smithsonian or a clapped out 1960's light twin.
I have a Garmin 530W with an HSI in the Maule and an STEC 50 with alt hold. I have the GPSS roll steering too which I would highly recommend. Its turn anticipation lets your autopilot capture impossible intercepts and will reduce your workload tremendously. It will fly the whole flight plan including departure procedures, enroute nav, the instrument approach to your destination, and the missed approach, it will fly to the hold on the missed approach procedure and even enter and fly the holding pattern, holding a perfect racetrack. All you have to do is decide at the missed approach point whether to pull the throttle out and land or push it in and go missed. You control the vertical throughout the flight. I'm assuming your 430 will have the "W" for WAAS, right? That will allow you to do other neat stuff. Many of the GPS approaches are LNAV/VNAV where you actually get glideslope-like information on the Garmin, so it's really more like flying the ILS.

Weather on the 430?? I believe the XM weather is higher resoulion on your 496 than it would be on the 430 and you need a pretty expen$ive little box to feed wx to the 430. It's the GDL 69 or 69A and costs $3500-$4000 uninstalled. If you have a 496, I'd skip that option. I have been flying with a 396 in a similar arrangement. It gives you redundancy and a battery-powered backup device if it all goes black or wonky on the panel.

In summary:

*get the written done ASAP
*get the 430W
*get the GPSS converter
*forget the430 wx option
*find a good intensive IFR flight training program like PIC
*become a happy camper


YB

I would also agree keep the radio with glide slope redundancy is your best friend when IFR.

One more question, should I keep the DME? There is plenty of panel space, so it won't be in the way. I could trade it in for some credit, but I am not sure if I will want it down the road.

Thanks for the help, the GPSS steering is ordered, and hopefully the 430W will be in within the month!!

Lance

lancef53 wrote:One more question, should I keep the DME? There is plenty of panel space, so it won't be in the way. I could trade it in for some credit, but I am not sure if I will want it down the road.

Thanks for the help, the GPSS steering is ordered, and hopefully the 430W will be in within the month!!

Lance

Get rid of the DME.

Rob

Rob's right; dump the DME. Use the extra 2 lbs of payload to pack some marshmallows for smores around the campfire. Also, when you get the 430W installed, be sure to get the full certification from the shop. It should be certified as a "sole means of navigation" ie, no additional DME, ADF or VOR needed for IFR. You should get a POH supplement to go in your book. There's a bunch of paperwork that the shop should take care of, so make sure they do it right.

YB

Dump the DME, it is just a boat anchor, since you will have the 430. Steve

I would keep the DME.

I fly some real IFR plus a lot of practice with a CFII in an attempt to get back some of what I had 20 years ago when I was flying a lot of IFR.

I have a 206 with a 430 + SL30 + STEC with GPSS + old Narco DME.

My initial inclination was to get rid of the DME but have found it very useful on many approaches. Sometimes the GPS does not give equivalent information to the DME: The DME gives the number on the chart in distance from the runway but the GPS displays the distance to some earlier point on the approach and you have to add or subtract to get the number to the runway. Easier to see on the chart but the DME is really nice to have. If you have room, keep it because the weight is probably less than the glideslope receiver on the 155.

BTW, I have flown a 530 a couple of times in other planes. The extra display space gives you a distance from Nav station which is much more equivalent to a DME.

The STEC GPSS is worth every penny. It leads turns and NEVER over or undershoots. It is 10x better than any other Nav tracking I have ever done, including 3axis STEC with KX155's.

I agree that you should keep the 155 with glideslope, although you many not use it much.

Keep the KX 155 with glideslope. If panel space is an issue, you can use the same OBS for both the 430 and KX 155, but you probably have room for both OBS. I'd also keep the DME. The Garmins don't fail often, but if it did, that DME would be very helpful.

You will love the 430. Heck, even I can fly IFR with a Garmin 430/530. I'd agree that if you can swing the panel space and additional cost, the 530 would be my choice.

MTV

I love this thread. It is interesting to hear everyone's opinion. I have a 430W. Just love it. We have 530's and 500's in our work planes. The 500 series has almost twice as much screen area. Also more features including radial and DME display. I also would keep the DME if you have room.

I think getting the instrument rating will help you in many ways. We are always limited by our equipment, our experience, our comfort level and our currency. You will be more compitent and comfortable when you add the instrument rating.

Just another opinion

Thanks for all the replies, this is great info!!

Lance

I picked up the plane today with the 430W and GPSS installed--It works awesome!!! Now I just have to learn how to use it all.

Enjoy the toys. You will decide the GPSS was worth it. Steve

Have fun with your new stuff. Wish I had the money for the new gadgets. Recent IFR myself, and did it in my plane with the old steam guages. I dont know about keeping/not keeping DME cause I dont have IFR GPS and I use my DME a lot. Its a nice tool to have when your hand flying a hold over a VOR. When the DME begins to count the other way you know your past. One thing you should get rid of if you still have one is the ADF. If you have a ADF when you take your check ride the examiner may require you to do ADF approach which are a pain in the neck and something you will not use, other than listening to AM radio. IFR rating is a lot of work (stay ahead with the book work) but the feeling you get when you pass that IFR check ride is worth the whole effort. I didnt need a plane to fly home that day. Enjoy. John. PS. (really wish I had some sort of auto pilot.....next plane will.)