Patrol Guy,
When I looked at your Scout it looked like it was all set for IFR. Let me know if I can help out.
Dave

GumpAir wrote:.. Not having an IFR ticket, especially living near the coast, is like having a car and not being able to drive on the freeway.

That statement seems a bit broad to me... what if you fly a J3 or similar? No radio's, no gyro's, no pitot heat, etc. Even if you had the equipment, what about when center wants to send you to 10K "no delay", or you encounter icing? I've seen lots of "full IFR" C-150's, maybe OK for training but I think they'd come up a little short in the real world.
I've thought several times about working toward an IFR ticket, but not having an airplane that I would consider to have the proper equipment and/or proper performance for IFR flight in the pacific northwest, I never followed through. And it seemed like a lot of time & money to spend to acquire skills that would wither & die afterward (use it or lose it).

Eric

So true, but it all depends on what you want to do with your flying life and/or career.

For me, Part 135 in Arctic AK in Sleds, it didn't do shit for adding legal IFR time to the books, but I guarantee you, being IFR proficient, especially partial panel, kept me alive for thousands of hours of crap weather and white-out conditions that would have otherwise killed me in just a matter of seconds.

Down here in Nevada at 4,500 feet in an O-300 powered C172, you won't find me anywhere near IFR weather. It would eat me alive. I stay current in the book and with charts for playing over on the coast, but that's about it.

Bottom line is, it's fun, it's a challenge, and it teaches a certain mindset to flying that adds to one's overall skill level and bag of tricks. I still think it's well worth the time, effort and money to do.

Gump

hotrod150 wrote:

GumpAir wrote:.. Not having an IFR ticket, especially living near the coast, is like having a car and not being able to drive on the freeway.

Even if you had the equipment, what about when center wants to send you to 10K "no delay"

Eric

Last I checked center was not flying the airplane...

I would agree with gumps assessments, and while I'm not familiar with the NW pacific coast down on the Kalifornia coast an IFR ticket means the difference in an easy early morning departure / approach on a regular basis...not all IFR is created equal...
You are correct on the use it or lose it analogy though... both legally and in terms of proficiency...

another opinion....Rob

I got my IFR so I wouldn't have to fly IFR. Ceiling 3000 overcast top 5000 I'm busting out the top and cruising in sunshine baby. Don't have to be in a jet to find sunshine on many days. Why bang around underneath with the vfr pilots when you could be gettin a tan.

Thanks again for all the ataboy's out there. It makes me feel good for all the time and $$ I put into it. For those who would shrink at putting in the effort for the rating I thought I would submit my humble reasoning.

Someone was quoted saying a pilot who is not IFR rated is only half a pilot. I dont know if I would go that far, but understand the thinking. The thing is, when we fly, we enter an arena where clouds live. Especially here in the Northwest where many clouds like to take up residence. I got fed up with feeling like they were something to fear and avoid. I dont have a need to fly all around in IMC in my little 172, but I dont know how many times I have had to cancel or delay a flight simply because a layer of stratus had crept in, or that pesky morning fog that persists over my airport next to the river wouldn't burn off until 10:00 or 11:00 when the rest of the state was CAVU.

Then there is the cross country where you want to spend the night out on the coast. CAVU getting there, then the next morning....Wham! Cloud deck with 400 ft ceilings. Tops may be only 1000ft, but your stuck. Just ask JFK Jr.

You get the point. Now I realize that I am still limited by weather, especially in the winter with the threat of icing, but I feel it was well worth the effort. I love a challenge, and this met the need. It has made me a better pilot all around, and a more confident pilot. I feel a more confident pilot is a safer pilot. It also has made me much more tuned in to understanding the weather situation and how to make the most use of all the resources that are available to the pilot, IFR or not. Not to mention becoming completely comfortable dealing with ATC. I know of a few pilots who wont fly into a controlled airport simply because they are afraid to talk to the tower.

As far as useing it or losing it. There are ways. Flying under the hood can be fun, and there are plenty of pilots who will fly safety pilot while you practice. Also, filing IFR even when its VFR weather isnt a bad way to go. It keeps you sharp utilizing the "system" and is a great way to travel if you just want to get there. Especially over here where we have lots of Class B and C airspace, you need not fret about it if you are on IFR flight plan. Flight following is automatic, and if you have an issue, ATC is a click away.

I also am thinking of flying air taxi here in a couple of years when I retire at age 58, and even though they are usually only VFR certified, you must have the IFR ticket as well as the commercial. So next on my list is the commercial.

Last but not least. There is just something about coming down through a layer on an ILS and breaking out and seeing the runway siting there in front of you. Oh, and there's nothing like that feeling when the DE says "Well, you passed".[quote][/quote]

Rob wrote:.....
Last I checked center was not flying the airplane......

It seems to me that if you're going to operate in the IFR system, you're expected to to be able to fly IFR and to accept any reasonable clearance given to you -- not fly "a little bit of IFR", or "IFR for a few minutes", or "VFR on top only please".
Flying a 80 knot airplane in the IFR system to me seems kinda like pulling onto the freeway then driving at 40 mph. Or insisting that they configure IFR traffic so that you can do what's easiest for you, instead of what works for everyone. To me -- an admitted VFR-only pilot-- anything much less than a Cessna 180 or similar is just not enough airplane for real life IFR op's- at least around the PNW.

Eric

hotrod150 wrote: Flying a 80 knot airplane in the IFR system to me seems kinda like pulling onto the freeway then driving at 40 mph.

Eric, it's not though. There are hundreds of little airports out there with approaches and departures, and the vast majority of the time it's just you out there sliding in. The IFR system is so much more than just the big boys at the flight levels. Now your 150 into LAX might be a stretch, but you could if you were ever crazy enough to want to.

Gump

GumpAir wrote: Now your 150 into LAX might be a stretch, but you could if you were ever crazy enough to want to.

Gump

I can hear the controller now.

"Ah, Cessna 150 on final, can you maintain MAX airspeed till your on short final, then expidite your exit off the runway at the nearest intersection. You have a 747 following you on a 5 mile final"

Or the controller may just tell you to turn left and proceed to Hawthorne or turn right and proceed to Santa Monica.

But, the point remains that controllers don't dictate who can and cannot use the system. If you REALLY wanted to go to LAX in a 150, you could, and I doubt the controllers would be anything but professional about it.

And, in fact, as Gump says, there are hundreds of small airports out there with instrument approaches, including the ones mentioned in the LA area.

Particularly in that part of the world, the instrument rating offers two huge advantages:

1) getting out of there when the smog is bad or a marine layer prevails, but the rest of the world is clear.

2) keeping you OUT of trouble with airspace and traffic. On an IFR flight plan, ATC has some responsibility to ensure you don't go somewhere you shouldn't.

It really isn't that hard to avoid "hard" IFR, if you pay attention and learn something about weather.

MTV

GumpAir wrote:.....Bottom line is, it's fun, it's a challenge, and it teaches a certain mindset to flying that adds to one's overall skill level and bag of tricks. ....

I am based in between a busy class B airspace (Seatac) and a busy class C airspace (NAS Whidbey), and have tagged along on enough IFR flights to see that while local ATC is plenty willing to work with GA aircraft, sometimes the clearances & routings you'll get aren't too practical for a "little airplane".
Plus my airplane has no vacuum pump, no DG, no art horizon, no VOR, no glideslope, no ADF, no DME, no R-Nav, and no IFR-legal GPS. It'd be a needle/ball/airspeed show for me, using "pilotage" (handheld GPS) for navigation.
So while I don't think getting an IFR ticket is worth it to me, I will agree with Gump's statement & with the positive points everyone else has made.

Eric

I met a guy one time at the races (a pilot friend of one of our riders) and I remember him saying that no matter what the weather was (IMC, night, or even clear) when possible, he always flew IFR. Didn't matter if he was in a small plane or his families King Air, he said it was just way easier and felt it was safer for him. But then again, he sounded like a point A to point B fast as you can kind of guy.

58Skylane wrote:I can hear the controller now.

"Ah, Cessna 150 on final, can you maintain MAX airspeed till your on short final, then expidite your exit off the runway at the nearest intersection. You have a 747 following you on a 5 mile final"

That's exactly right, and exactly what you hear, and if you don't get asked, you do it anyway. IFR or VFR, there is no reason to fly a 50 KT, three mile final into a bigger airport with heavies running up your ass.

When I worked in the SF Bay Area I flew my C180 a lot into SFO and OAK for the sheriff's dept both VFR and IFR. Sliding downhill I'd hold 120+ KTS until over the runway, and bleed power and speed and touch down just shy of where I wanted to exit, making my runway exposure time maybe 10 to 15 seconds. The controllers were more than cool, and always liked to see a taildragger wander down their way.

Gump

1.8 IFR training today. This is fun now. In and out of cumulus, light wind.

Out again tomorrow.

Cheers...Rob

Gump:

Great points, although reflecting back on my own flight training, some of your recommendations appear reflective of your skills and experience, and aren't probably well suited for low time PPL's, instrument rated or not.

I did my primary at BUR in the LA area many moons ago, and dodging 737's was par for the course. I had one on my ass upon my return from my long x country.....I was flogging that 152 on the way down at the controller's insistence. Felt lucky I didn't become a smoking hole in the blast fence though, as I floated off approx 5000' of the runway because I couldn't get 'er slowed down......I did get it down and stopped, with a considerable amount of seat cushion ingested in my rear end, and it did teach me a valuable lesson to 1. fly the plane and 2. not be afraid to blow off the controller and focus on #1.

The controller in Class C airspace has every right to send you off on a little adventure, whether VFR or IFR, while he lands the heavies and gets them to the gate on time - Which is what he should have done to this very wet behind the ears student pilot almost 2 decades ago.

With age and hopefully more wisdom, I have worked at the technique you describe, trying to keep the coals lit for best possible speed on descent, and knowing when to pull the power off to make it all come together where you are the least burden to others, especially those earning their meal ticket. Certainly haven't perfected it yet, and I think it is a skill that takes time to master. Above all, while LAX is theoretically "doable", it probably isn't appropriate for the vast majority of the private, instrument rated (or not) pilots out there unless they are willing to put the time in you and others have to be comfortable operating at that level.

Just offering my two cents before Schwarzenegger and the other goofballs under the dome in Sacramento pry them from my fingers.......

Flynengr

Double post

flynengr wrote:
The controller in Class C airspace has every right to send you off on a little adventure, whether VFR or IFR, while he lands the heavies and gets them to the gate on time

Flynengr

Last time I flew into Boise, Approach asked me to do 3 360's over Eagle as they were trying to get 6, A10 Warthogs coming in at the same time. After the first 2, approach thank me for my help and I said "your welcome, anything I can do to help, I'm in NO HURRY". Well, Approach came back and asked me to do the 3rd 360. It was cool because even after I landed and before tower handed me off to ground, they thanked me yet again!

I've always been intimidated about flying into controlled airspace, but recently have found it to be very easy and for the most part the controllers have been very helpful and friendly.

RobBurson wrote:me listen, I'm hardly ever here. ha ha

whynotfly congrats, I'm a little behind you. I hope to get mine done by the end of March. Like you I will be glad when the check ride is over.

Fly safe...Rob

My instructor signed me off to take my IFR check ride. Now I just have to get er done. It has taken a bit longer to get to this point than I thought. My schedule and that of my instructor don't mesh as well as they could.

Maybe the weather will cooperate and I can get this done and get back to the fun stuff.

Cheers Rob

RobBurson wrote:My instructor signed me off to take my IFR check ride. Now I just have to get er done. It has taken a bit longer to get to this point than I thought. My schedule and that of my instructor don't mesh as well as they could.

Maybe the weather will cooperate and I can get this done and get back to the fun stuff.

Cheers Rob

Good luck with the ride Rob!

Well it is done and I passed! It wasn't that pretty But James said it was good enough.

I guess you can't get an "A" on every test

I can't thank you enough James, you are a class act!

Cheers...Rob