First off, Im not sure where I should have posted this thread, although I think that I would probably be talking about this if I was around a campfire anyway so...

Second off, is my flying skills. I am from North Carolina and flying in the mountains here is fairly simple since we only have half the height most of you guys do out west. I would like to come to some of the fly-ins and do some backcountry stuff in Idaho and elsewhere next spring. My dad flew in Gunnison, Colorado for quite some time and has quite a bit of mountain flying experience, however with his schedule conflicting with mine, I have yet to get some quality mountain flying training.

My question is, with me being pretty new to mountain flying, and with limited training in high altitude (real and DA), do any of you have any ideas on how to advance my skills? I have a PA-22/20 and am pretty comfortable flying it, and I feel my short/soft field techniques are pretty good in NC at least.

Any mountain flying instructors/courses/people that would just be willing to fly with me and give me tips type of thing? Any info is greatly appreciated, I am really looking forward to learning more and getting the chance to fly to somewhere cool.

Here is a course in McCall Idaho. http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/ It runs a little over $3K for the course and I can't say if it is good or bad. The course was a little expensive for me and I have my dad to teach me. Also I have read the mountain flying bible (dry but good info.) and another book I have read which was entertaining but had some valuable points is "Wager with the Wind: The Don Sheldon Story". I am not a hard core mountain pilot but I do live in central Idaho and consequently do it often.

If it don't feel right, don't do it.

I have flown very little in the very high altitude places but the times I did I noticed a definite difference in the reponse/control feel of the plane. My times were in New Mexico and AZ. I was based in AZ for a few years and the field elevation was close to 5,000'. During the hot summer months it took quite a bit more runway to get off the ground with any type of load. I remember going over one mountain at 12500 and my 172 felt like I was sitting in a lawn chair while balancing on a ball.
I know this isn't what you are looking for but it may help you to understand a little how your plane will 'feel'.....climb your plane up to the elevation you are expecting to fly when out west and do some slow flight or approaches to stall. This probably isn't a lot but it won't cost you anymore than fuel. The DA has a big effect on our little planes and makes them feel almost 'mushy' when they are high. Climb performance and response are degraded and it'll let you experience what it will be like flying in the nose bleed levels.
Keith

Pacer,, I go to Idaho every summer for 10 days to 2 wks. and have since 1995.. Started with a tripacer I helped restore and flew it up there one year and it sold... I then bought another one and flew it till 2006 when I bought my Maule... before I went up there first year I flew with a buddy who had the hangar next to me. he had a PA 20 135 and did well up there considering the low hP of the plane... I practiced slow flight until the cows came home for weeks before each trip up there... slow flight turns, slow flight approaches, slow flight climbs, you name it... Then hitting your numbers on every landing... If you can do that within 25 feet of the numbers you can do any strip in Idaho...The other most important thing I did on my PA 22 was twist the prop flatter... I had it redone to 53 inches... the improvement was nothing short of Phenominal... I could get 2800 RPM at static, which is above redline but it was there if I needed it.. I routinely got off the ground in under 500 ft no matter where I went up there..Just get rolling to about 45 or 50 and yank full flaps and voila, airborn..I had VG's on my Tripacer also and they helped quite a bit with slow speed elevator and aileron control down to stall...the mountain flying seminars up there are great but I never took one.. did all my learning of the area on my own with my buddy who had been there for years before I first went ...you fly drainages mostly,, follow river valleys and streams... GPS is a huge help since I didn't have one the first two years I went I had to really keep my head into where I was and in what canyon... you DON"T want to fly up a canyon the ends in a big wall of dirt... guys who don't know the area do it all the time.. We had one a couple years ago who is no longer on this site, who did it at our fly in ....that brings to mind another thing you should practice... Max turns.. and by that I mean put it on a wing tip and yank a 180 as often as you can... at different airspeeds... Could save your life...I guess that about covers it.. I defer experience to the Idaho guys as they know way more about Idaho than I have learned over the years.. OH and get Hanselmans fly idaho... you'll wear the pages out...cheers... Iceman

Well said Iceman, that pretty much says all there is to say, I'll just add: you guys at sea level???? You got it MADE!! The performance difference is so much, I can see how in a backasswards way, how big a bugaboo the whole density altitude thing can be to a lower elevation pilot. For a higher elevation pilot going to sea level it's like Christmas and your birthday all at once, great fun!

I think the best way is to plan a trip out west and simply learn by doing.

Many of the best strips to fly into for fishing and hiking access are large and accommodating. They are pretty safe even for folks who are beginning to gain experience and comfort levels in the mountains. Judgment comes by doing- safely.

As for many of the smaller ones, the same skills that you practice at home are the ones you'll be needing for them- except they actually matter a good part of the time. I have met a lot of folks who have been able to enjoy a lifetime of safe backcountry flying without hiring an instructor. I also know folks who did it for years, nervously, then hired an instructor, and they find it both safer and more enjoyable as a result.

High DA flying is exactly the same as flying at home with your Pacer limited to whatever %BHP (55%-65%) you'd get up high. Once you are comfortable with that, the bigger issue is flying closer to the limits of weight and balance. Some folks fly a plane for years without experiencing their plane fully loaded, and discover a thing or two about handling the first time they head for the hills loaded to the gills.

Of course, I have the reverse problem- I remember once getting nervous when I'd visit lower altitudes and see the rate of climb over 1200 fpm and thinking that just wasn't right...

I put an 82X41 on my 150 pacer and loved it! if you want climb and to get out short thats the ticket. You pac=y for it in cruise though as you will only get 90-95 at 2450, but most of my trips are within a couple hundred miles so the take off performance and climb were well worth it to me! You will really need extended gear and big tires with that prop, or you better 3 point every landing and hope you never get a flat! With VG's and the first notch of flaps, I was rock solid at 40 MPH. Stall came on about 35 with a REDICULOUS high deck angle.

now if you want some suggestions on where to go for fly fishing I have a few and they are relatively easy strips up there... I always catch fish at the streams I fly into and I've been to most of them in the back country...Haven't been to Mile hi but i have no reason to go there since there's no fish there...

okie fisherman here.
iceman: i would love to know of some strips with good fishing and access next time i fly out west. please share some knowledge.

Pacer17 wrote:First off, Im not sure where I should have posted this thread, although I think that I would probably be talking about this if I was around a campfire anyway so...

Second off, is my flying skills. I am from North Carolina and flying in the mountains here is fairly simple since we only have half the height most of you guys do out west. I would like to come to some of the fly-ins and do some backcountry stuff in Idaho and elsewhere next spring. My dad flew in Gunnison, Colorado for quite some time and has quite a bit of mountain flying experience, however with his schedule conflicting with mine, I have yet to get some quality mountain flying training.

My question is, with me being pretty new to mountain flying, and with limited training in high altitude (real and DA), do any of you have any ideas on how to advance my skills? I have a PA-22/20 and am pretty comfortable flying it, and I feel my short/soft field techniques are pretty good in NC at least.

Any mountain flying instructors/courses/people that would just be willing to fly with me and give me tips type of thing? Any info is greatly appreciated, I am really looking forward to learning more and getting the chance to fly to somewhere cool.

I went to Nelson Aviation in Challis Idaho and rented Pete for a day about $350.00, we flew into most of the local backcountry strips, well worth the money. I would recommend him.

c172tw wrote:okie fisherman here.
iceman: i would love to know of some strips with good fishing and access next time i fly out west. please share some knowledge.

both upper and lower loon creek strips offer great fishing... fish the pools for the bigger fishl... I've seen some in upper loon over 20 inches.. pretty fussy eaters though... Cabin creek is also a regular as are any strips on big creek. I fished shearer a couple times and caught many cuts there but all were rather small in the 12 to 14 inch range... If you want to fish a lake fish lake is a good bet and always reliable...Thomas is sort of so so and I've fished it about 4 times in the past.. caught a few downstream from the strip on the flat area near the old cabin... also caught a few at the hot springs upstream. mostly anywhere you go you should do ok but i've found if you go when the water is still high with runoff forget fishing. then you have to go to the higher smaller streams like Chamberlain .... also for a good day fishing and a good meal definitely hit Sulphur creek... great bkfast and you can fish the stream with excellent fishing or if you just want to tie into some really big ones get over to the pond and cast whatever is flying around... there are some huge cuts in that pond but is is a stocked pond and fly fishing purists would liken it to shooting fish in a barrel... but never the less they are big and put up a good fight...good luck...