The problem with car gas is ethanol. We all know it must be avoided like the plague, but has anybody experimented with mixing water with gasoline with ethanol, shaking it around, and draining the ethanol/water mixture?

Do you mean using water as a method of removing ethanol from large quanities of gas instead of just testing for it?

Blue&Yellow Luscombe wrote:The problem with car gas is ethanol. We all know it must be avoided like the plague, but has anybody experimented with mixing water with gasoline with ethanol, shaking it around, and draining the ethanol/water mixture?

I think Blue&Yellow Luscombe is looking for a way to get the alcohol out of car gas.

I am looking at the same problem. In Oregon I have been told is going to year round 90% UL gas 10% methanol.

Last year all I had to do was take a short drive out of the metro area to get 100% UL gas. This year all the pumps have the 10% methanol added sticker.

When I use my tester I can not detect any rise in the water level. The gas distributor says there is Methanol added. I know it cost the distributor to do this.

By state law they are supposed to add some where between 7.5% and 10% I think the distributor may be fudging. If there were 10% I would surely see the water level rise after I shake it up and let it settle. Regards…Rob

RobBurson wrote:I am looking at the same problem. In Oregon I have been told is going to year round 90% UL gas 10% methanol.

Right, I'm trying to get ethanol out of the car gas so I can use straight unleaded in the plane. Truth is I don't really know what the crap is they put in the local gas. Methanol and ethanol are different, but neither is recommended fuel material on the advice of the EAA (methanol more due to corrosivity I guess) and wow, if it desn't show up with the standard "alcohol" test, there isn't much way to know.

I think auto fuel would become more worth the headache should more aviation fuel tax increases become a reality. If avgas is twice the cost of auto fuel, then I think it makes pretty good sense to haul some fuel out to the airport.

The ethanol diluted fuel though is another issue. I find it hard to believe that this is a purely emissions related thing. Ethanol is cheaper than gasoline prior to markup, so Chevron/Exxon/BP, take your pick, has found a good way to sell more volume, but less actual crude distillate, but they charge you for 100% gasoline. I hate be all conspiratory, but it kind of reeks. I personally think it's a big oil wolf in sheep's clothing, even as the token BCP Californistan envirowacko.

Can anybody speak as to the shelf life of 100LL? I know oxygenated pump gas starts to lose octane rating the longer it sits, so it can literally go stale...but what about avgas? How long can it sit without losing "freshness?"

I use the water gas then dhake it test for Ethynol. I live in nor cal and the gas here shows an increase in water volume thus indicating ethynol. I have a 100 gal slip tank in my truck and when I go to Oregon I fill it up and do the same test. No increase in water.

Texas Skyways makes a motor for my 182 that will work on 85% ethynol with no change to the airframe. If it will work on 85% then why not 10%. Probably because EAA or Peterson have not done the work yet.

Heard a rumor of a few guys that have been running the pump gas with 10% and have had not problem. I am sure that there insurance would be void.

Tim

hello

qmdv wrote:
Texas Skyways makes a motor for my 182 that will work on 85% ethynol with no change to the airframe. If it will work on 85% then why not 10%. Probably because EAA or Peterson have not done the work yet.


Tim

Good luck with that theory, I used to run a nitro/ethanol pulling tractor and believe me the 182 airframe wont handle 85% ethanol.

Its not when its full that's the problem, as the oxygen gets to the surfaces of the aluminum corrosion is unbelievably fast. Can you say lines, gascolater and carb.

As I understand they are anodizing the carbs, one scratch and its big white piles of corrosion.

One time we forgot to drain our injection unit and in three days the thing was junk.

The whole government subsidized ethanol thing is outrageous it takes 130,000 btu of coal to make 80,000 btu of ethanol plus all the water it takes

There should be a revolt.

Texas Skyways really has the STC for 85 ethanol in 180's and 182's. Talked to them on the phone. FAA says yes and Cessna says do not do it.

Tim

Tim

I think there STC is for AGE85 of which there is no standard set yet.

It takes a lot more of this stuff than avgas so range will be cut way down.

Before you add water to auto gas to try to remove the ethanol, bear in mind that GASOLINE can also hold some water, both in suspension AND entrained(in solution). And it is very difficult to remove entrained water.

MTV

Ethanol vs Gasoline discussions seem to go nowhere.

Fact is that big oil, coal companies, farm organizations, environmentalist, Congress and the White House are all in favor of ethanol. They have and are investing billions of dollars in it and its here to stay.

Burn 100LL in the airplane and forget about ethanol in mogas.

I don't believe that ethanol can be removed from gasoline by mixing water and letting it settle out.

I wonder how much ethanol has been burned through airplane engines and no one ever knew about it. If you fuel up with 10% ethanol blend and fly today or tomorrow, you probably will not know the difference. Fuel up with 10% ethanol blend, let the tanks sit half full for 2 weeks in the winter and condense water. Then sump the tanks and you will NOT detect the water. Now fly the airplane and I believe you will see a difference.

I do use ethanol blended gasoline in all our gasoline engines, old and new. But I do not want it in the airplane at this time. Use 100LL.

it takes 130,000 btu of coal to make 80,000 btu of ethanol

This may or may not be true, but try to burn coal in your airplane or car.

Ten miles from me sits a fire breathing pig of a coal plant burning 8 million tons of coal a year. Two years ago they added an ethanol plant that is powered by the coal plants waste energy. Pretty efficient ethanol plant. Two years from now they want to add a solids to liquid plant and convert coal into gasoline. This will use an additional 10 million tons of coal per year. I assume more energy will go into the plant (coal, man power, electricity, machines and diesel fuel) than gasoline energy coming out. But, try to burn coal in your car, not going to happen.

We are an energy hungry country.

Bill

I'm thinking the reason the FAA doesn't allow 10% ethanol is because there are too many people like RobBurson and Mr Scout that don't know the difference between ethanol and methanol. There's a big difference and since all ethanol plants add an anti-oxidant to every gallon they produce now, ethanol isn't corrosive. I've had aircraft aluminum and rubber parts in E85 for several years testing to see what happens---so far nothing. The one experiment I did using 100LL vs. E85 in a coffee can with a hole poked in the plastic lid to simulate a vent proved 100LL evaporates sooner. The rubber seals both looked the same. I also have a 1992 Toyota 4X4 that has had 50% ethanol in it for the last 6 years---it still runs good.

mtv wrote:Before you add water to auto gas to try to remove the ethanol, bear in mind that GASOLINE can also hold some water, both in suspension AND entrained(in solution). And it is very difficult to remove entrained water.

MTV

No problem. Add a bottle or two of HEET.


I wonder what other things you might be removing if you removed the alcohol? Depending on what is soluble in what you could be removing some stabilizers, volatility additives, antiknock additives, and other stuff that you want to keep. After you add the water, shake or stir well, and pour off the gasoline you end up with a water, alcohol, mystery chemical medley that you'll have to dispose of somehow. Weed killer, maybe?

Maybe the better method is to channel your inner southerner and build yourself a still!

I believe these folks are adding water to a small amount of mogas to test for Methanol/ethanol/alchohol. Not to try to remove it.

There is plenty of un-blended mogas still available. I use it. It saves me almost exactly 2.00 per gallon. Every couple of tanks I mix in a little 100ll for fun. Every 1000 hours I fly with mogas saves enough for new engines. Not to mention the feeling of satisfaction I get from sticking it to the price fixing bastards on my field. So, maybe we could be a little less hasty in telling people to only burn avgas.

180Marty wrote:I'm thinking the reason the FAA doesn't allow 10% ethanol is because there are too many people like RobBurson and Mr Scout that don't know the difference between ethanol and methanol. .

Are you sure
I do know the difference between CH3OH and ethanol, you wrongly assumed since I was using it in a pulling tractor it was methanol, sorry to burst your bubble but we were one of the few that ran ethanol instead.

That was back when sex was safe and sky diving was dangerous.

Ethanol plants do however add methanol to make it poisonous so they avoid the fed tax.

I agree they have come along way on there formulations but since its a proven fact that it takes more btu to produce than it gives back, its only another welfare program.

I bet that Toyota gets great mileage to. A visitor recently took my airport throw down car, (a 1995 Chrysler) and filled it with E85 it ran fine as well only the mileage went down 18%

Ill stick with 100LL, I am not into tripping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

It is possible to remove ethanol from gasoline by a process known as "washing", but it's probably not the kind of chemistry the average yahoo should try at home. Beyond the complexities of the process there is the question of what other beneficial additives would be inadvertantly removed in the process, not to mention the issue of properly disposing of the byproduct.

As I understand it ethanol itself is not the corrosive agent, it is ethanol that has absorbed water that is the problem. And don't forget that ethanol has less energy by volume, so even if you experience no other deleterious side effects you are essentially derating the power of your engine. By how much? Who knows. Might be enough though to make the trees you could always just clear a real issue.

mr scout wrote

Ethanol plants do however add methanol to make it poisonous so they avoid the fed tax.

I agree they have come along way on there formulations but since its a proven fact that it takes more btu to produce than it gives back, its only another welfare program.

I bet that Toyota gets great mileage to.

Sorry if I'm wrong about your use of ethanol in the tractor. I'm an investor in two ethanol plants and want to use fuel I produce. They don't denature with methanol anymore(if you experienced corrosion that is probably what did it), they use a volatile hydrocarbon called natural gasoline to denature now. Pentane is one component in natural gasoline that is also in 100LL to help starting a cold engine. I raise corn using no-till, don't pump one drop of water to irrigate, the ethanol plant buys 24,000 btu's of energy(natural gas or coal) to produce one 76,000 btu gallon of ethanol and dry it's associated distillers grain. Distillers grain is 1/3 of the original bushel that goes out as high quality livestock feed. Some ethanol plants are using methane from landfills or an adjoining cattle feedlot to power the process. The guys that irrigate desert to grow corn are the ones that make ethanol look inefficient but they aren't that big of a percentage. I'm not going to tell you the Toy gets better mileage as it is but if I raised the compression ratio to about 13 to 1 it would be similar but forget ever using any pump gasoline.

180Marty wrote:

Sorry if I'm wrong about your use of ethanol in the tractor. The guys that irrigate desert to grow corn are the ones that make ethanol look inefficient

Marty
No sweat on the tractor deal.
Could you please tell me how many gallons of water is used in the process to make say 100,000 gal of ethanol. And how many btu of energy are lost there. The 24000 btu's your plants buy is that there portion and through government contracts and credits that's all they pay for.
Or are your plants so efficient that the people around the county providing information just haven't caught up with the latest technology?

Corn prices go sky high so the Dairy guys out west cant afford to buy it.
Many farmers out here get big offers for there land for the water rights from Midwest ethanol investors.

In fact a local ranch just sold for 5.3 million dollars to some folks in NE, that was worth about 1.5 to any local.

There is legislation in process to stop the transfer of water rights out of the area.

They are also signing contracts to grow desert corn which is as you say very inefficient.

End of Rant

mr scout, The plants I'm in are several years old and use 3 to 4 gallons of water per gallon of ethanol. Just read where Delta T Corp that designs plants has become efficient enough to get that number down to 1.5 per gal. of ethanol and some older plants will probably be updating. So far NW Iowa and east has been keeping up(we get dry and then it rains a bunch and we wish it would quit) but I don't know about out west. As far as buying natural gas, the government doesn't figure in that. That manager contracts just like any other big user of gas---so many $$$ per million btu's and the gas company won't lock in a price very far out when the price is down either. The coal fired plant is locked in for years ahead with Wyoming coal. As far as dairies go, there are two new 4000 head ones that will be going in a few months in the county I live---they moved here from the Twin Falls ID area because it's getting crowded there and the distillers grain is plentiful and cheap here. There are some big ones in surrounding counties built by people that came out of CA. Le Mars Iowa is the ice cream capital now because of Wells Blue Bunny-----a few years ago they were dewatering milk and hauling it from Calif. just to haul it back as ice cream. That doesn't seem too efficient to me.