I was out flyin yesterday and got to thinkng about a topic brought back up a week or so ago talking about getting instruction vs. buying gas and learning on your own. I went the instruction route because I thought that it atleast saved me a lot of time, which I think is more valueable than money(this is a line of thought that seems to come with age ). You still have to fly regularly too get good with these techniques but with a little help,atleast you have good tools to work with, and aren't developing bad habits.

One thing I got from the instruction was exposure to techniques that I wasn't even aware of that I think are key. Whether you buy insruction, or just ask someone to help you, you need to know what to ask for.
So these are a few of the things that I came away with that I thought were essential.

Know your speeds at different flap settings and be able to maintain them.

Know how to fly a stabilized aporoah.

Know how to do a canyon turn. Things don't always go the way you want.
I suspect this could have saved many lives if pilots flying up the wrong canyon were aware of this techniqe and knew how to do it.

This type of fling is great fun. But I think it is the most fun when done with proper technique and confidence, not just hoping tat something will work, and nothing else will go wrong.

Just some of my thoughts, and hope they make a difference to someone.

Gary

Gary,

You make a good point. Initial instruction, regular practice and occasional review with an instructor are the three "legs" of successful flying. Each of those legs is equally important, so don't neglect any of them.

In the words of the inimitable Yogi: "You don't know what you don't know" to start with. So, you need to find someone who can provide you with the basic tools to start, regardless of what sort of flying you're going to do. And, understand that basic flight is VERY different than instrument flight, which is VERY different than backcountry flying, which is VERY different than off airport flying, etc, etc. So, get a good foundation in whatever sort of flying you are moving into.

Then, the best performance enhancing dollars you can put into ANY airplane is burning gas, improving the PILOT's performance.

Finally, as time passes, you'll probably get a little sloppy and/or want to add a few more "tricks" to your bag. Find another instructor or go back to your previous one, and polish things up (that's what Flight Reviews are supposed to be, right?)

Repeat regularly....

MTV

Instruction in your plane, with someone who is very well type qualified is priceless. Find that person and be willing to pay them well for their services. A CFI in your plane that has very little type time I have found does not add a lot to your bag of tricks. You will probably know more about the plane and its characteristics than them.

Gary
I appreciate your comments and agree that there are things that can only be learned from others. In my situation I have much more time than money so buying fuel is the way I feel my money is best spent. Another reason for my choice is that my plane is not a backcountry bird and most instructors that know anything about mountain flying wont go near it. The strips I'd like to get some instruction on would be very margional with two people but very doable solo. If I had a 180 I'd be on the phone every week with Matt7gcbc setting up instruction.

This type of flying is why I fly. Someday when I have a more capable plane I'll get some good instruction to learn the techinqes that will help me get the most out of the plane. For now I'll take it slow and easy and use my head now my ego to make decisions.

I think for the most part we are on the same page.

Whee, what are you flying?

Going early morning solo, even in a gutless dog like I'm flying now, you can work yourself in to (and even more importantly out of) of some really fun places.

I had an O-200 powered C-120 with 8.50's on it for a Lower 48 airplane a few years back, and that little airplane and I covered most of the dirt between Northern California and the north end of British Columbia with relative ease.

Gump

Gump,

I fly a 85 hp Luscombe. With the crappy mechanical brakes it has on it I can get out shorter than I can get in. Problem is that I'd like to get into places like Wilson bar, Cabin Creek, Big Bar, Dug Bar...etc. With my experience it would not be wise to try them without instruction...but stick a 180 lb guy in the right seat and things could get interesting.

For now I'm having a fun time camping with the wife at places like Upper Loon, Thomas Creek, Indian and Chamberlain but its kida like skiing the same black dimond all the time because nobody will show you the secret double diamond...atleast not when you only got x-country skis

Whee,

Consider flying up to McCall, and rent one of their airplanes and instructor for a bit of dual into those places. Even flying a Super Cub, you can simply restrict rpm on takeoff to simulate takeoff with a lesser performing airplane.

That will at least give you the exposure to what those places are like, and you can then make your own decisions as to whether you want to try those places on with your airplane.

As I said, there's times when you need to go find some instruction, maybe in another airplane or with another instructor, to get you to the next stage.

MTV

I'll probably get flamed here, but sometime instruction is over-rated. It's fine to get dual to learn the basics, then you go out & fly & fly & fly until it becomes second nature and you get proficient at it. So you want to "move up to the next level" -- now what? Everyone here is saying instructor. If the next level is flying your approach at 1.2 or 1.1 x stall speed instead of 1.3, well that ain't rocket science. Ditto for tail-low wheel landings, 3 pointers then push the tail up landings, unorthodox traffic patterns, etc.
I will agree that reading about a flying technique (like on these forums) isn't the same as dual instruction, but it does give a guy an idea of what he could be doing, and how. Then he can go out and learn on the job, so to speak. Unless you're talking about highly specialized techniques like water-assisted landings, like I said- it ain't rocket science. The same basics still apply, you're just applying them a little differently.
A good example against too much dual is the John Kennedy Jr crash- I guess he had plenty of IFR time, but most of it was with a CFI on board. That can be sort of a crutch- if it get's too hairy, jjust throw up your hands & say "your airplane". If he'd done more IFR flying by himself, maybe what happened wouldn't have.
Just my 2 cents...

Eric

hotrod,

Your point is well taken, but consider that I view a big part of my role as an instructor to be noting bad habits or potentially dangerous actions by the pilot I'm flying with.

I am not for a moment suggesting that you should spend half your total flight time with an instructor, as you say, that probably isn't going to be very constructive. In fact, I've worked through several insurance checkouts where it was clear to me that the pilot was up to speed before we reached the insurance company's "magic number". That's the time to get creative, but a different situation that you describe.

My point with bad habits, etc is that we all, myself included, get into some habits that may not be good, and in some cases may lead to dangerous situations. THAT is a big part of recurrent instruction. Those things are VERY hard to see in our own flying, so it helps to have someone else in the cockpit with you to evaluate and point out those things.

As to the JFK jr. accident, it wasn't a lot of dual instruction that got him, it was a failure to recognize that you can be in "basic VFR weather conditions" (which he was) and still not be able to fly the airplane by reference to outside visual references. He was in VFR conditions, but he was, without doubt in IMC (instrument meteorologic conditions). That is a recipe for disaster.

For years, I've referred to this kind of condition as "PVFR", defined as being in basic VFR conditions, but not being able to see anything. The P stands for "Pretend" in this case.

Gump can tell you all about PVFR related to white out conditions, but JFK jr. was clearly (pun intended) in PVFR conditions, and didn't transition to instruments soon enough or wasn't proficient enough on instruments to get out of there alive. He was not instrument rated but was working on the rating.

MTV

I think all you guys are pretty much on the same page, but just wording things a bit differently here and there.

I can't speak for anyone here but me. I don't learn well from "being told" how to do something, or simply reading it in a book. My brain is too stupid for that. I need the tried and true USMC method of, "See One, Do One, Teach One." Especially in an airplane. If I can see what it looks like, hear what it sounds like, and more importantly, experience what it feels like, I will for the most part have it locked in after only a short period of time.

I bought my first airplane as a kid, and soon discovered that I had a knack for feeling how the airplane moved, and how it's weight shifted in the air and on the ground. The basics of mechanically flying the airplane came easy, which made things fun, because then I could use the brain for the cool stuff and go out and play.

And it's that play time where you learn to feel your airplane. Go out and do NOE where it's safe, work on the one wheel landings with a stiff crosswind, find some nice, narrow dirt roads to make you sit up and concentrate, and keep your gear lined up within a few inches of where YOU want your gear to be. Play time is the transition time, where you go from flying by consciously manipulating the controls, to pilot time where the airplane responds to what you're thinking it should do.

Get to that corny Zen moment where you become one with your airplane, and these mountain strips and off road landing areas stop being the intimidating mysterys that they seem to be to you now.

Gump

Keep up the good advice, this "short timer" is listening.

from AOPA

Quotable perspectives on aviation safety and decision making
"In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks." Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900

"There are no new types of air crashes-only people with short memories. Every accident has its own forerunners, and every one happens either because somebody did not know where to draw the vital dividing line between the unforeseen and the unforeseeable or because well-meaning people deemed the risk acceptable." Stephen Barlay, "The Final Call: Why Airline Disasters Continue to Happen"

"Nobody who gets too relaxed builds up much flying time." Ernest K. Gann, "The Black Watch"

"Mix ignorance with arrogance at low altitude and the results are almost guaranteed to be spectacular." Bruce Landsberg, Executive Director of the AOPA Air Safety Foundation

"Rule books are paper-they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal." Ernest K. Gann, "Fate is the Hunter"

"Usually it is because someone does too much too soon, followed very quickly by too little too late." Steve Wilson, NTSB investigator, when asked about the cause of most aviation accidents

"No matter how many times we have landed or taken a machine up into the air, we can never afford to do it half awake, or by habit." Richard Bach

Gump,

Good points, but I would argue that a good instructor doesn't just "tell you" how to do something.

Even the student of zen has a Master to guide him.

MTV

mtv wrote:Gump,

Good points, but I would argue that a good instructor doesn't just "tell you" how to do something.

Even the student of zen has a Master to guide him.

MTV

Exactly... I agree completely, but comes a time when you gotta leave and go off on your own, and that's where the real learning begins, and never ends.

Gump

What are you guys talking about? I have my private pilots license. I know everything!

Skystrider wrote:What are you guys talking about? I have my private pilots license. I know everything!

Then walk on the ricepaper Grasshopper!!!!!!

Gump

GumpAir wrote:

Skystrider wrote:What are you guys talking about? I have my private pilots license. I know everything!

Then walk on the ricepaper Grasshopper!!!!!!

Gump

Hey, give me a couple hundred feet of ricepaper and I will land on it! Just don't plan on using that ricepaper for anything else!

(We are joking here, right?)

Skystrider wrote:Hey, give me a couple hundred feet of ricepaper and I will land on it!

Make the approach steep enough and you won't even need a couple hundred feet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you can use the hot aluminum to do the hibachi thing to your forearms like Kwai Chang Caine.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:

Skystrider wrote:Hey, give me a couple hundred feet of ricepaper and I will land on it!

Make the approach steep enough and you won't even need a couple hundred feet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you can use the hot aluminum to do the hibachi thing to your forearms like Kwai Chang Caine.

Gump

Cool! Maule on one arm and eluaM on the other!

o.k. fine. you are all right. when we used to blast out of falconberry
with a blistering 90 hp, it was all about time of day, weight, and precision
speed control. the 90 hp was your speed control...

the instruction part is so right. the alternative being "let's just take the
dirt bike approach, and go ahead and risk wrecking the hell out of an
airplane." let the ins. co sort it out. after they pay, they do only triple
your rates for 3 yrs., so what the heck...!?

gumps ideas are spot on. tons of hours in my 182 up here on the little
dirt roads and dry farms, by myself, have indeed helped immensely.