Carry,
Since you seem to know the regs pretty well I have a question for you. My friend Bryan (piperpainter) has me fly with him as his safety pilot whenever he needs to shoot approaches to remain current. Since we're using his Mooney (a complex airplane) and I don't have my complex endorsement, can I still log the time? I'm under the impression that I can't log the time but I can still act as the safety pilot.

As a necessary crew member, you can log it as SIC (second in command), but that's worth less than trying to buy a $4 latte with only a dollar. It's absolutely worthless for any purpose, other than if you're trying to add up your total time to try to impress someone. It won't count for any advanced ratings or certificates, and if your goal is to join a 121 airline or a 135 operation, none of them will be impressed--in fact, I have it from a friend in the airline business who has served on their hiring staff that time padded with SIC time which is all safety pilot time actually raises suspicions, especially if the applicant just barely has the number of hours to qualify and is using the SIC time to get over the qualification line.

Remember my comments in other threads, which can be summarized: Be less concerned about logging time than in flying useful time, time which teaches you, improves you, and makes you a better pilot.

Cary

Thanks for the clarification, Cary. I'm not trying to build time for anything so I won't even bother logging safety pilot time as SIC. I may try to get a part 135 job someday but that won't be until I retire from the AF in another 11 years.

Cary wrote:As a necessary crew member, you can log it as SIC (second in command), but that's worth less than trying to buy a $4 latte with only a dollar. It's absolutely worthless for any purpose, other than if you're trying to add up your total time to try to impress someone. It won't count for any advanced ratings or certificates, and if your goal is to join a 121 airline or a 135 operation, none of them will be impressed--in fact, I have it from a friend in the airline business who has served on their hiring staff that time padded with SIC time which is all safety pilot time actually raises suspicions, especially if the applicant just barely has the number of hours to qualify and is using the SIC time to get over the qualification line.

Cary

This statement is incorrect.

As someone who is in their 28th year as a pilot with the airlines, and has worked directly with the individuals who do the actual hiring, ALL logged time is taken into consideration and summarily evaluated.

I have flown with individuals who never had the opportunity to fly as PIC on sophisticated aircraft prior to being hired, but were outstanding aviators in every respect and a true asset to the airline.

Great advice and input here guys! Thanks!

I had figured somewhere around 50 hours and about 9-10 months flying once, sometimes twice a week, so I'm not too far off.

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement about the XC hours. At 75 hours, I need to build time and experience PERIOD!! Getting my instrument rating is just an expensive way of building those hours (I'm gonna fly so I might as well be learning w/an instructor at the same time), but I know it'll be worth it.

Have my second lesson tomorrow.

ALL logged time is taken into consideration and summarily evaluated.

MM, I think you missed what I was saying. SIC time while acting only as a safety pilot for the pilot practicing instrument approaches, according to my friend in the same business you are in, is looked at by his airline with suspicion, especially if the applicant's total time just barely qualifies him/her for the opening. By all means, SIC time which is useful time in a very complex airplane should be favorably considered, but SIC time which is not useful for the purpose should be looked at with suspicion.

Incidentally, by saying all this, I don't mean to belittle safety pilots--they have an important job to do, and it's not just to ride along. They must be actively looking for other airplanes while making sure that the pilot flying maintains control of the airplane, with the possibility that they must be able to take over immediately if the pilot loses it.

Cary

Another question,,,I really want to fly high wings, the place I have trained at so far basically just has the Archer II low wing. Fairly cheap but ultimately what I want to fly is a high wing.

So to build say the rest of my X-country hours (37 or so) would it make sense to go to a local club and fly their 172's (cheaper by a bit) to build m timy X-countrye and then go back to where I have been training and do my IR in the Archer? Or should I stay in the same plane and not worry about it?

I guess what I am saying is, I like the place I train I just don't necessarily like what I am training in as I want some time in a high wing but don't mind doing my rating in the low...

Thanks

Kyle

It's good to get time in as many different types of aircraft as the opportunity presents itself. You'll be a better and more confident pilot because of it.

Barnstormer wrote:It's good to get time in as many different types of aircraft as the opportunity presents itself. You'll be a better and more confident pilot because of it.

Excellent advice!

I 150% agree on the different time in different aircraft. Just didnt know if flying something else would effect my time when I get there for the rating to do it in a different airplane.

Either approach would work, I'd do the math with the aeroclub, it may or not make sense to go that route if it is just for a short period of time (due to membership and monthly fees). If you are flying a lot it probably would be cheaper to join the club... and their instructors' rates are pretty reasonable as well. If you are not flying a lot at the moment I would stay where you are at and just fly the Archers for now. If you have any questions about the aerclub PM me, I was a member there for about 4 years.

robw56 wrote:Carry,
Since you seem to know the regs pretty well I have a question for you. My friend Bryan (piperpainter) has me fly with him as his safety pilot whenever he needs to shoot approaches to remain current. Since we're using his Mooney (a complex airplane) and I don't have my complex endorsement, can I still log the time? I'm under the impression that I can't log the time but I can still act as the safety pilot.

Hey Rob,

I'll echo the sentiments on SIC time. It really doesn't count for much until you start flying equipment that requires a second pilot.

AOPA had an article in their August issue that addresses your question.

August 1, 2013 By John S. Yodice

It is FAR 91.109(c) that specifically imposes the requirement that a safety pilot be on board an aircraft being operated in simulated instrument flight. This regulation is really a supplement to the see-and-avoid responsibility imposed by FAR 91.113(b). “When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating the aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.” So, in discharge of this responsibility, it makes sense that if a pilot’s vision is restricted, as in simulated instrument flight, there must be another qualified pilot on board primarily to help see and avoid other aircraft.

What qualifications are necessary for a safety pilot to be able to properly discharge this responsibility? FAR 91.109(c), itself, tells us some of the qualifications, but there are other qualifications imposed by other regulations. FAR 91.109(c)(1) requires that the safety pilot must hold at least a private pilot certificate. The pilot certificate must have category and class ratings that are appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

FAR 91.109 does not address a safety pilot’s need for a medical certificate, or instrument rating, or recent experience. We need to look elsewhere in the regulations. The FAA interprets other regulations to require a medical certificate. Here is the FAA’s analysis. FAR 61.3(c) provides, with certain exceptions not relevant here, that no person may act in any capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember under an FAA-issued pilot certificate unless he or she holds a current appropriate airman medical certificate. FAR 1.1 defines a “flight crewmember” as a pilot assigned to perform a duty in an aircraft during flight time. Since a safety pilot is required by regulation to be on board to perform see-and-avoid duties, and since the safety pilot must hold a pilot certificate, under this analysis the safety pilot must hold a current, appropriate airman medical certificate.

A safety pilot does not have to have an instrument rating if the flight is being conducted under the visual flight rules. However, if the aircraft is operated under instrument flight rules, even in VFR conditions, whoever is acting as pilot in command of the flight must hold an instrument rating appropriate to the aircraft being operated. So, if a pilot who is not instrument rated is flying an aircraft IFR under a hood simulating instrument conditions, the safety pilot must necessarily be acting as pilot in command of an aircraft operating IFR, and therefore must hold an instrument rating. If the pilot under the hood is instrument rated and acting as pilot in command, even though the flight is IFR, the safety pilot is not required to have an instrument rating or be instrument current.

What about recent experience and flight review requirements? Certainly, whoever is pilot in command must meet these requirements. But what about a safety pilot who is not pilot in command? Notice that the requirements of FAR 61.57(b) and (c), for three takeoffs and three landings in the past 90 days, apply only to a person who serves as pilot in command on a flight on which passengers are carried. So, since the safety pilot is not pilot in command, the safety pilot does not have to have this recent experience.

What about the flight review requirements of FAR 61.56 (commonly but incorrectly called the “biennial flight review” or BFR)? This requirement applies only to a person who serves as pilot in command. So long as the safety pilot does not act as pilot in command, this requirement does not apply to the safety pilot.

So much for the qualifications of a safety pilot. There are a few other requirements that relate to the safety pilot that I should mention. Most important, and for obvious reasons, the aircraft must be equipped with fully functioning dual controls (there is a special exception in FAR 91.109[b] for single-engine airplanes, which allows for the use of a single, functioning, throw-over control wheel), and the safety pilot must occupy a control position so as to be able to manipulate the controls if necessary. And, companion to this requirement, the safety pilot must have adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft. If there are any restrictions to the safety pilot’s view, the restrictions must be compensated by “a competent observer in the aircraft [who] adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot.”

If the pilot under the hood is logging time to meet any aeronautical experience or training requirements, which usually is the case, the name of the safety pilot must be entered into the pilot’s logbook along with the usual logged information such as the date, flight time, location, aircraft, and the type of each instrument approach accomplished. No other identification of the safety pilot is needed other than his or her name. The safety pilot has no similar logging requirement.

Although I'm a little late on the thread I'd like to hand out some info. Chapter 5 of the AIM is a really good starting point and the regs listed at the front of the FAR/AIM under Instrument Rating will help set a foundation. Also the Instrument Flying Handbook and Instrument Procedures Handbook are good as well and can be found on Amazon for reasonably cheap. I also bet you could find a bunch go King videos on YouTube. LiveATC.com can be very helpful with radio communications. The instrument rating is definitely one of the most challenging but most rewarding ratings as well. Have fun and good luck.

How often do you all use IFR? The Air Force has us fly IFR to the max extent possible and we are VFR very rarely... Usually only during VR and SR low levels. I would assume landing in dirt would require some what decent weather

Obviously flying jobs require commercial which requires instrument ratings... But on a day to day basis, how often are you filing IFR and going out to fly in actual IMC?

Say I'm flying for an outfitter. Is it usually VFR the whole way and if any IMC is along the route that means it's no go? I would think it would be up to the PIC's decision if they would be comfortable flying into the mountains and landing in the wilderness with skosh weather. I guess I'm asking if total VFR flying is the usual for that sort of flying.

I usually file IFR for longer cross countries, just because it's easy--no worries about dodging this or that restricted area or Class whatever airport. And if clouds happen to get in the way, unless of course they're T-storms, no biggy. But flying any light single in heavy IMC is not the wisest move.

If you're flying 135 ops, though, although you have an IR, you can't fly in IMC in a SE without a special checkride and an elaborate autopilot. Exact details elude me, but back when I was doing SE charters, I recall riding as a safety pilot while our chief pilot was getting ready for his IFR ATCO ride in the T210, and I rode in the back seat during his ride. I did not take that ride, so although I was required to be current for IFR, I couldn't use it in IMC or file IFR.

Cary