So,
I know this has been beaten to death but, I think I'm going to shop my insurance again. I have been using AVEMCO. Low time pilot in a 185 I was paying 4k a year to start then it went up as everyone has and I made improvements so hull value was raised significantly. Now I have over 100 hrs in type and just got my instrument ticket. No accidents or claims made and I have had insurance for 3 years now. With the ticket, my insurance came down 500 bucks ridiculous. So now Im paying 5k. I have to believe someone is cheaper. So is anyone paying less with similar situation as mine?
Gypsy

What's the hull value?
I've got $90K hull on my old 180 (too low, given today's replacement prices)
and I paid about $1500 when I renewed last fall.
I go through Bill White Insurance, Bill's an old 180/185 pilot.
Underwriter is AIG.

Gypsy,


I would check rates with either Falcon aviation or BWI. I have been using Falcon for 14 years. Rates have gone up but I still feel they are reasonable. I pay 2300 for 150K Hull. 1 million/200K limits. I have 2700 TT/1550 TW/ and 1250 in skywagons. No accidents or incidents. Policy also permits off airport operations.



Josh

I paid 150,000 for mine and I have well over 200,000 in it at this point. All new avionics, wing extensions, vg's, etc done over the last 2 years. Therefore I have 200 for hull value. I will give the recommendations a call.

I used Rocky Aviation. Ted was great shopping around for me and saved me a bunch of money..

https://www.rockyaviation.com/aviation-insurance/

I'm still a low time guy.. 500 total time (all in tailwheel), and 100 hrs in my 180

I hope you can find someone that will work with you. Quotes on my plane we’re so bad I didn’t insure at all this year. BWI didn’t care about me and neither did Falcon; I was just another dip to them. I went back to the outfit I’ve been using who seems to sorta care.

If you find a good outfit please let us know.

Gypsy,

Give Ladd Gardner a shot. I started with him this year. 300K hull, 1mil liability was about $3500 or so. I'm a fairly high time 180/185 time pilot for them. Over 1000 time in type and ATP. All just for reference.

I agree with Whee about BWI. I personally did not have a good experience when I insured with them.

This is my first year with Gardner but so far it's been quite easy.

MW

https://lgainsurance.com/

I've been with BWI sor several years now and have been very satisfied. Best rates I could find.

On the flip side, let's look from their perspective:

- Private pilot, new to type
- $200k airplane known to be balled up and very expensive to repair
- Only averaging 33 hours/year in type, arguably not enough for maintenance of proficiency, definitely not enough to master it
- Gave a 10% discount with addition of an IFR rating that likely wont reduce the accident probability associated with 185s

I'm not being a dick, but you aren't the safest bet in terms of people they could choose to insure.

When insuring my 180, I found BWI to be cheapest (AVEMCO was the most expensive) and have gone back to them for 2 other airplanes because they have been good to me. Have also heard great things about Ladd Gardner though so I wouldn't hesitate to go through them.

asa,
ya that was kind of a dick answer. I get insurance. I am a physician who pays for malpractice insurance too. Guess what, you where a low time pilot as well at some point. does that mean you should have to pay out the ass for it? I do not believe so. As for your proficiency comment, I can see your point. Some of us have another day job that requires extensive amounts of time like being a doctor. That all said I was not looking for the insurance take on things, I was looking for other options to price the market. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Guess you never want to see one of my collogues even if they just finished residency, oh wait they are deemed proficient because they just finished residency. Malpractice insurance is the same for a new doctor or one practicing for the last 40 years. Just like I finished my ticket should be worth something other than the skill and safety that Instrument training provides.

I don't know anything about malpractice insurance, but asa's comments about the relative risk of an aircraft insurer taking on a low time pilot for a high priced 185 are pretty accurate. Hopefully you find a good option you can work with. But your best bet might be to take whatever insurance you can and make sure you fly more so you can maximize your ongoing proficiency and look like a lower risk to them in future years.

gypsywagon wrote:asa,
ya that was kind of a dick answer. I get insurance. I am a physician who pays for malpractice insurance too. Guess what, you where a low time pilot as well at some point. does that mean you should have to pay out the ass for it? I do not believe so. As for your proficiency comment, I can see your point. Some of us have another day job that requires extensive amounts of time like being a doctor. That all said I was not looking for the insurance take on things, I was looking for other options to price the market. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Guess you never want to see one of my collogues even if they just finished residency, oh wait they are deemed proficient because they just finished residency. Malpractice insurance is the same for a new doctor or one practicing for the last 40 years. Just like I finished my ticket should be worth something other than the skill and safety that Instrument training provides.

I truly wasn't meaning it as negative towards you.

I pay $3300/year for $80k on a Maule because I bought it with no time in type. All the hours and titles and such were relatively meaningless, it was a kind of airplane known to be balled up and I hadn't flown one before. There was no other option so I took it and try to make the most of it. Once I write the check at the beginning of the year, I pretty much forget about it until time to renew because airplanes are awesome. Maybe year 2 it'll go down. Maybe not.

Glad I'm a lowly pilot where my boss has to think about the flying version of malpractice insurance and such, would hate to be involved in all that jazz. No harm in asking BWI or Ladd to get quotes for you. They have a lot of incentive if they can steal business from Avemco.

Gypsy,

Shop the market the best you can. Your rates will eventually stabilize once you get to the 500 hour mark or so. If not then you can decide what insurance you need i.e. liability only, full coverage not to include flight etc. All up to you. Shop the market and find what works best for you and your ability to "potentially" absorb the loss if it should occur.

I personally limit my liability exposure as much as I can in who rides with me. My choice.

Good on you for buying and flying that great 185!

MW

Gypsy, just be glad you’re not in Alaska. We get no respect and have to pay through the nose if we want insurance. Throw in floats and it gets really obscene.

I have experience with both Avemco and Bill White. When I got my 182 four years ago, Bill White was a mere fraction of Avemco. That was before the insurance market hardened. Independent insurers are going up significantly every year, while Avemco has remained stable. My policy renews in September and I’m betting that Avemco will be competitive.

Bill White tells me that the magic numbers for reasonable Skywagon insurance are 250 hrs tailwheel and 50 in type. They also say make & model are very important and 50 hrs/year make & model are a demonstration of maintaining proficiency. If not for a hardening insurance market (which Avemco is really not affected by), your increasing experience would be pointing in the right direction, but more hrs/yr would also help. When I got my private, my designated examiner highly recommended 4 hrs/month. This is easily doable and something that I’ve always strived for.

Also, hull value is a big driver of rates. With aircraft insurance, hull is the biggie and liability not so much. Look at your auto insurance policy – liability is the biggie. I can pretty much guarantee that your change in rates with Avemco has been entirely due to your increasing hull value; their rates have remained stable for years.

When shopping, get quotes from Avemco and from only one independent agent. That independent agent will shop the whole market and once an insurer quotes an agent, they won’t quote another agent. The differences between agents seem to be how knowledgeable the agents are and how good they are at presenting a specific pilot in the best light as a risk. For the past several years Avemco was significantly above the market, but I think the market has risen to meet or eclipse Avemco.

Enjoy that Skywagon as it sounds like a good one. Wish I could get a 185, but my minimal tailwheel time does not present me as a good risk.

Ross

All,
I have called BWI and others, BWI responded quickly and I got to learn they can not give quotes in the "middle" of your policy cycle. You can only shop the market 90 days before policy expiration. On another note, I agree with flying as much as possible and proficiency. As a side, the plane has been in the shop twice for multiple months during ownership. 9 months for panel upgrade, 5 months for wing upgrades. SO I do fly more than 3 hours a month. This proves my whole point that numbers do not show the full picture. Thanks again.
Gypsy

There is another option to get ball park quotes. You call and say you are looking to buy a C185 (same year as you have) but before you purchase you want to see if you can afford the insurance or need to purchase a nose wheel plane for lower premiums. Provide TT, time in type etc. This was my approach when I thought my rates were too high shortly after I bought my C180.

Bruce

I paid $4,800 for $180k hull value on my 185 this year, tailwheel/floats. I had zero 185 time, zero tailwheel time, and very little float time. But thousands of hours in nosewheel planes.

Ross,
Your response actually gives insight, thanks so much. Tones of hours does not prove to the insurance gods that your not a risk I guess. (further opinions on insurance held to my self). I did get some new quotes and I found 4500 so I'm gonna save some more. I agree with others here and what other agents are telling me that 250 in type is when the prices will start to drop. I'm not debating with people I was merely looking for other options which an option that was given is what is going to save me money. More 100LL to keep up that proficiency.....
Gypsy

Interested in getting more than 1 million liability coverage, does anyone have a suggestion as to a company? The ones I have called don't seem to want to offer such.

I wonder if you could just increase the liability in your home owners and apply it there as well? Just a thought.
Gypsy