I recently found a plane I am interested in buying. 46 t craft with C-90. I will have to finance the airplane so I am open to suggestions on good places to get a loan from. Also insurance currently I am working night shifts which make it a bit difficult to call and get information on what it will cost to get insurance and which insurance agency is the best. What kind of prices should I expect for about a $30K hull value? Those that have t crafts and or similar type airplanes what are you paying annually?

I guess I should add anything to watch for with t crafts?

www.airloan.com

Depending on your total time and tw time, insurance will probably be around 1k, give or take a couple hundred.

I know a guy who lends money, but since he's inherently suspicious of people he'll want to break your legs in advance. Let me know if you want a meeting. Wear old pants.

FNB Crossett. It's a small little bank in south Arkansas. They do a lot of ag stuff, but will also do general aviation. I worked with them when I had my cub and by far had the best rates and terms. If you are interested in more about them just shoot me a PM.

Cost of insurance is totally dependent on your total time, time in type and time in tailwheel.

MTV

0 time in type. about 65 tailwheel and about 90 tt.

I paid $1200 to insure a '46 BC12D with similar piloting experience (Alaska).

Largest item of concern would be the condition of the wing spars and the wing's internal (compression/flying?) wires. Followed by fuselage condition/corrosion.

Taylorcrafts are awesome airplanes and will teach you a lot about flying. Make sure and keep it as light as possible!



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Keep in mind that aircraft insurance isn't anything at all like car insurance. With car insurance, there are multiple companies doing it, and they all act as their own brokers. In aviation, there are several companies, but all except one, AVEMCO, work through brokers, so that you'll get the same quote from this broker or that broker--in other words, you can't shop rates like you can with car insurance. AVEMCO is the only one acting as its own broker. So basically you have 2 calls to make, a broker handling aircraft insurance, and AVEMCO.

That's not to say that all brokers are equal. There are some who do a better job than others, especially with airplanes which aren't cookie cutters. With so few T-crafts in the stable, you'd be best advised to contact a broker which handles unusual ones, such as Falcon, plus AVEMCO.

You're at a real disadvantage at your experience level, which means that you'll pay more than a more experienced pilot will. That's just the way it is.

As for getting a loan, few normal bankers know anything about aircraft, so many won't lend for aircraft purposes at all. Tying this to your insurance questions, those which have no aviation experience are likely to insist on the wrong kind of insurance, because they equate airplanes with cars. When you start talking hull insurance, in motion or not, in flight or not, hangared or tied down, instead of their usual "collision and comprehensive", their eyes will glaze over. So while I've borrowed at normal banks, I think you're better off going with one which is experienced at lending for aircraft.

There's another piece of that, too. The only effective, legal way for the lender to secure its loan is to file its lien properly with the FAA, not with the Secretary of State of the state you're in as they would with ag equipment or with the County Clerk as they would with a car. But if a lender files anyway as if it's something else, while it won't protect them, it does muck up your title when it's time to sell. So that's another reason to go with an experienced aviation lender.

Before buying any airplane, a title search is necessary. There are several aircraft title companies. I've always used AOPA's title services, FWIW.

One last comment on buying any airplane: be prepared for unexpected expenses. My suggestion is that you have at least 150% of the purchase price available in case of a major expense. I base that on my own experience. I had my airplane for only 15 hours, when it threw a rod through the top of the case and I landed in a field. Insurance only paid to recover the airplane from the field and the very minor damage to the wheel pants. Everything else, including the new engine, came from my pocket. My engine (O-360 Lycoming) was $23,000 12 years ago, and while a C-90 would be a little less, it's still a bunch.

Cary

Just a data point for your information.. I have recently been getting insurance quotes on various planes trying to decide how big a factor insurance plays when choosing different makes and models.

On the topic of a low time pilot - I currently have 100 hours but am requesting quotes as an IFR rated pilot with 120 hours because that's about where I'll be when I am ready to buy in a couple months. Both companies (BWI & Avemco) gave me similar quotes for almost every plane, within $100/year, although some of the pre-PIC requirements were slightly different ranging from "checkout with CFI" to "20 hours dual". Also, when I asked about future price drops due to experience building, they both said that I could expect a 8-11% price decrease at 250 hours TT, which was good to hear to me, as I'm sure it is to you too.

asadarnell wrote:Both companies (BWI & Avemco) gave me similar quotes for almost every plane, within $100/year, although some of the pre-PIC requirements were slightly different ranging from "checkout with CFI" to "20 hours dual".

Not that he wouldn't shop around anyway, but my experience was totally different. Hallmark ended up quoting me a little less than half what Avemco did. So definitely shop around.

rw2 wrote:

asadarnell wrote:Both companies (BWI & Avemco) gave me similar quotes for almost every plane, within $100/year, although some of the pre-PIC requirements were slightly different ranging from "checkout with CFI" to "20 hours dual".

Not that he wouldn't shop around anyway, but my experience was totally different. Hallmark ended up quoting me a little less than half what Avemco did. So definitely shop around.

That's what I've heard from most people. I didn't mean for that to come across as telling him not to shop around. When I actually choose a plane I will look into more than those two as well.

For a low time pilot, I think that price drop in the next 100 or so hours is really a big factor since TT can almost double in the first year, so maybe ask them about that too, because it's not listed on any of the actual quotes I got.

I am a big believer in not being in debt.
I financed my first two cars, at age 17 & age 20, but have paid cash for everything ever since --
including my current (very modest) home.
In this day & age, a car is a necessity, so I can see buying one on time, but are you sure you wanna go into debt for what is essentially a toy?
It's a lot easier to stay out of debt to begin with, then to get yourself out of debt once you're in.
Esp, since as a young guy you might have other expensive stuff (such as a college education maybe) which IMHO should have a higher priority than an airplane.

Can't help ya on the loan, but for insurance I'd call

AVEMCO
https://www.avemco.com/secure/owned-air ... rance.aspx


Air Power
http://quote.airpowerinsurance.com/?utm ... hgodHYMMlw


AVEMCO is great for normal stuff, air power really excels at more odd ball stuff, I've use both, for my winter liability only policy for my amphib, which I just carry to keep the airport happy since I don't fly in the winter, I go with AVEMCO, when I put hull back on I talk to TJ at air power.


Also don't give them your N number while you're comparing rates, only give it up when you're ready to pay, just say you're looking at T carts and haven't picked one out yet.

Just to add my 2 cents worth: Avemco quoted me a price that was almost exactly 1.5 times what I wound up paying for the exact same coverage from another company using a broker.

JP256 wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth: Avemco quoted me a price that was almost exactly 1.5 times what I wound up paying for the exact same coverage from another company using a broker.

I had the same experience. I'm very happy with the service my broker has given me.

Another opinion on loans - I financed my airplane. There's a difference between financing your life and borrowing money to better time a big purchase. We borrowed to time the purchase with some other life events. We ensured our budget would afford 3x the minimum monthly payment. This gives us the ability to pay off early and to be flexible for unexpected costs.

In my experience, there's been a ton of incidental costs in the first year of ownership that I didn't expect. If you're going to finance, make sure your budget has the flexibility to drop some cash into the plane from time to time. Baffle seals, hoses, wires, alternator, tools, etc. all add up over time. We planned for flexibility and it's kept the plane from being "down" for maintenance for extended periods of time - which might have been the case if my budget was super tight.

My thoughts.

CamTom12 wrote:

JP256 wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth: Avemco quoted me a price that was almost exactly 1.5 times what I wound up paying for the exact same coverage from another company using a broker.

I had the same experience. I'm very happy with the service my broker has given me.

Another opinion on loans - I financed my airplane. There's a difference between financing your life and borrowing money to better time a big purchase. We borrowed to time the purchase with some other life events. We ensured our budget would afford 3x the minimum monthly payment. This gives us the ability to pay off early and to be flexible for unexpected costs.

In my experience, there's been a ton of incidental costs in the first year of ownership that I didn't expect. If you're going to finance, make sure your budget has the flexibility to drop some cash into the plane from time to time. Baffle seals, hoses, wires, alternator, tools, etc. all add up over time. We planned for flexibility and it's kept the plane from being "down" for maintenance for extended periods of time - which might have been the case if my budget was super tight.

My thoughts.

On the comparable insurance issue, make sure you're comparing apples to apples. There are a lot of permutations of aircraft insurance policies, so sometimes it's really hard to compare one to another.

On the financing issue, fully agree--be ready for plenty of extra costs beyond the payment. Every airplane owner I've ever met has experienced unplanned for expenses in the first year, some much more than others (like mine was outrageous by comparison to most) but it's not unusual at all to have the first annual 5 times what you expect (no hyperbole there), as your new mechanic finds oodles of mistakes in logs, failures to comply with ADs, etc.

Cary

Cary

On the financing issue, fully agree--be ready for plenty of extra costs beyond the payment. Every airplane owner I've ever met has experienced unplanned for expenses in the first year, some much more than others (like mine was outrageous by comparison to most) but it's not unusual at all to have the first annual 5 times what you expect (no hyperbole there), as your new mechanic finds oodles of mistakes in logs, failures to comply with ADs, etc.

Cary

Cary

If possible, pick a mechanic you want to work with and have him/her do the pre-buy (and annual inspection if a cursory examination warrants serious consideration), and figure all of that out before you buy. $500-$900 is a lot of money to spend on a airplane you don't purchase, but it's cheap compared to buying the wrong plane.

And absolutely DO NOT buy an airplane if it's going to stress you financially. Finances improve with time unless you do dumb things, like buy a maintenance-intensive machine that's a little out of your budget...often better to wait a couple years...

Keep the advice coming its been quite helpful. I applied for a couple quotes online, just have to wait to see what comes back. I have a IA friend who will do a prebuy for me, and also work with me on doing any kind of work on the plane. I have helped him quite a few times twist wrenches on planes so we are both comfortable working together.

When I purchased my first airplane, I joined the "type clubs" for several of the models I was most interested in buying. That way, I was able to get on their web sites, review articles and forum posts about maintenance expectations, etc. Well worth the $20-30 that a year's membership typically costs...

Once I decided on the airplane I really wanted, I looked for one that had all the panel equipment I really wanted - up front. A broker told me that you would be extremely fortunate to raise the value of a plane by 1/2 the money you spend in the panel, and that it was much easier to let the seller take the depreciation hit. I found that to be very true.

I also followed the advice you always get about having a good pre-purchase inspection done, by someone other than the shop that's been maintaining the airplane. I went one step further, and found someone who was experienced with the specific airplane type I was purchasing, and who would know the things to look for during an inspection. Every airplane has it's "gotcha" components - the ones that are either unobtainable (or unaffordable) and thus need to be carefully checked out before purchase. Having a true "expert" do the inspection is a great way to avoid major disappointment. And if no true expert is available at the point of sale, and the seller isn't willing to take it where an expert can look at it, you can potentially have an "assisted pre-buy" where an on-site mechanic does the inspection, but you pay an "expert" to give them advice on what to check and how to do so. I did this on my second airplane, and it saved me from a $30,000 repair (on a $70,000 airplane!).

Finally, I could have paid cash for my first airplane, and that's exactly what I originally planned to do. But the plane I found that was just about perfect for me was right at the upper limit of my price range. Paying cash for that one would have left me "cash poor" such that any major repair or unanticipated expense would have put me in a bind. After some thought, I opted to finance 75% of the purchase price on a 10-year aircraft loan (through AOPA, by the way), and keep my cash pool available as a "reserve" against unexpected expenses and repairs. I made sure I could afford to pay at least 3X the loan payment, to accelerate the loan payoff, and was pretty consistent in making a 3X payment each month.

I was fortunate with that airplane that my first two years of ownership were basically problem-free, and my maintenance expenses were limited to database refreshes, oil changes, and two annual inspections. At the end of that time, the loan balance was paid down enough (and my cash reserves augmented enough) that I elected to pay off the loan balance. It took a LOT of the stress out of airplane ownership for me, knowing that I had the money on hand to fix just about anything (up to and including an engine overhaul, if necessary) without having to take money out of retirement investments, 401K, or taking out a last-minute (probably high interest) loan... I was very happy with the results!

And whatever you decide, be sure you fly your new airplane a LOT! Airplanes prefer to be flying, rather than sitting idle in a hangar or tie-down! Good luck to you!

So far I have been able to get 2 insurance quotes. #1 a hair north of $700 #2 closer to $1100. now to find the best loan.