Hey everyone.

I've got a couple questions for you guys.

First, I am seeking information on the feasibility of ownership. I've been reading the forms for some time and been doing research for a couple years now off and on and I would love to get my own plane. I've looked at pages and pages and made excel sheets and stared at a calculator more then I'd like to admit. I'm wondering, What is the ACTUAL cost of owning an airplane? I know what the sheets say and what my calculator says but I'm wondering what your guys experiences are?

I live in Spokane, I am a Commercially/Instrument rated Single/Multi airplane and Helicopter, Gold seal CFI. 2300+TT 0 Tail wheel and currently work as a HEMS pilot.

I would love to have Maule, Husky, or 185 but I don't think I can afford the insurance, unless you guys can think of something that would be cheaper to do backcountry flying with? I'm looking at a mid time (1000 to 1200hrs) mid to late 70's or 80's C182 IFR equipped (Not fancy, just do the job). Probably flying 10 hours a month or so. I'm figuring:

$700 - $1200/yr insurance
$250 - $400/mth Tie-downs or Hanger
$1000 - $2000/yr for Annual and General mx

Are these numbers fair and accurate? What are your guys experiences with price to own?



Second part of my question... If owning isn't in my budget does anyone know anybody around the Spokane area that has shares available or a partnership available in anything?

Thanks guys. I'm just looking for something where I can wake up in the morning and say, man I'd like to go fly around a little bit. Maybe take it for a weekend trip or something. But I'm tired of dealing with renting and having to schedule a head of time, and then being charged if I don't use it or charged a minimum hour per day, etc... any advice is helpful! Thanks guys!

Kevin

Best thing I can say is that if you want an airplane... Throw budgets out the window.

+ 1. I have 4 planes and I genuinely have no idea what they cost to run and I really don't want to know! I've helped others work out costs, fixed costs no problems, it's the variables that will get you every time. Owner A might fly a 180 for ten years with nothing but scheduled maintenance, owner B with the same aircraft, same total time, same engine hours will constantly have issues, be they engine, prop, airframe, electrical, avionics... etc etc.. I think a lot to do with previous history, operational and maintenance. My advice is buy the most unmolested example you can afford and don't accept what seem like simple defects with the plan to repair yourself in the future. It ALWAYS costs more than you expect.. Your $1,000 to $2,000 year for maintenance will very quickly blow out if you have to replace, say a battery, brake linings and disc, starter adapter etc etc etc etc etc

I don't mean to sound negative, you NEED a plane

bigrenna wrote:Best thing I can say is that if you want an airplane... Throw budgets out the window.

That's the best advice. If you really want to own a plane just buy one and you'll figure out a way to make it work. Owning an airplane will never make sense financially. It just has to be a passion that you're willing to spend lots of money on.

I agree with what has been said. At the end of the day an airplane is an entirely discretionary use of money (don't tell my wife I admitted that!)

To robw56's point, there are lots of ways to make owning fit into a wide range of budgets. I have no idea what it costs to maintain a 182, but I took over the financial upkeep of my family's J-3 a couple of years ago and have been pleasantly surprised at the operating costs. I pay $200 a month for a space in a nice, dry box hangar; $650 a year in liability and hull insurance; and $650 for labor at the annual. So far no significant mx expenses... ...but I am budgeting for a recover ($$) and an engine overhaul ($$$). Ok, I had to replace the worn out 6.00x6's that we had on the plane. The Airstreaks cost $2,200 and were a totally absolutely positively necessary upgrade.

I disagree.

I think its important to know what you're getting into. I do agree that an airplane is totally discretionary spending, but I don't think a laissez faire attitude is the best way to do it. Sure, it's A way to do it, but there might be a better way.

Here's what I did:

Call around to places you would keep your plane. See what hangar rent or sales cost.

Call Avemco and see what a rough quote with your time in the types of aircraft you're interested in purchasing would cost. (My Avemco quote was about $600/year more than what I ended up going with from another company, but it's a good starting point when building a budget)

Start laying out a spreadsheet with forecast costs built in. Break these down to fixed costs and operating costs. See how many hours you could afford to fly based on the information you've collected. To me, how much I could afford to fly was a significant factor in what I wanted to purchase. Or PM me your email address and I can send you the one I made so you can modify it to fit your situation.

Then, with a solid understanding of what you can afford, start looking for the airplane of your dreams.



I was worried about buying more airplane than I could realistically afford to fly. So I did the math and got one I could afford to fly often. And I'm VERY happy I did it this way. Best of luck!

EDIT: fixed some minor stuff I meant to fix earlier that resulted in the duplicate below.

Duplicate

Your hangar cost seems a bit high.

Partners can be a PIA. I'd suggest sticking with a tricycle Cessna. Either a 180 HP 172, Hawk XP, or a 182. If it's that much trouble to rent in Spokane, sell some block time. It will help to offset your costs and set aside some savings for the unexpected. I own a 1/3 share in a decent 172. We have no shortage of pilots like you that are thrilled to have their own key for our airplane, reserve their flights on an online calendar, and then just go fly. We have a few rules, but keep it light and uncomplicated. We're happy with $85/hr. dry rate and only charge wheels up to wheels down so that they pay off the electric Hobbs. They send us money by email. We almost never see them. They treat it like their own. If we hear a complaint, they're out, so they police themselves.

Every asset and liability I have is "Balanced" and budgeted about every (6) months. Spreadsheets work best and are easily read...

...Email the (6) month budget to my wife, she either OKs it or its return, to me, for amendment. The aircraft will fly so many hours a year per the budget. I flew about 100 hours in 2015 and was $3000 over budget. Alaska is expensive! I had some quick thinking to do, like make YouTube videos to distract her. Lucky my insurance went down! So I'm going to be in the "Black" soon...

Also, keeping a simple version of a budget on my iPAD helps me remember and update as needed. I do not keep whole account numbers on the spreadsheet (just last [4]).

Reminds me... I need to check my budget...good thread!

Realistically good advice, but for me that would suck the fun out of it. I would rather fly first and figure out how to pay for it some other time...

The minister for fun and finance often questions the need for four planes. I think she's unreasonable.

The one unknown that really affects the price of owning a plane is the dreaded Morebetterdisease!!! Some get a bad case even before they have the plane back from pre-buy. Others fend it off for a few flights but as you start talking to your friends and hanging out at the hanger with a few beers the fever will start. Easy enough to ignore at first, but then you will find yourself surfing the web for "just a few things" on bad weather days. As the fever builds, you will realize that on nice days you fly, so no need to have that boat anymore. At this point the fever is nonstop and you find yourself driving around to airports to look into other planes and see just how the new mini iPad can be mounted.
Denial as to how bad the disease has taken hold becomes evident at annual time. You figure that while the wheel bearings are being repacked now is the time for double puck brakes and new lines (it only makes sense). Instead of replacing the battery in the intercom box it will be better and safer to just replace it with a nice in-dash PS system with jack for iPod. In case the jack fails the new Bose bluetooth headset will make it easy to call home and tell the wife you are going to be late so not to worry (ya that upgrade is not for the plane it is for the wife!!) You start to worry about how much you are spending so you decide to get a new engine monitor so you can save some money by leaning without worry of hurting engine (it will make money in the long run).
All the above is only a mild case. Hopefully at this point your friends step in and get the aircraft out of the hanger and back to flying. If not the wing mods usually hit next and seeing as you have to repaint that sportsman leading edge might as well pull the wing and redo tanks. While the wings are off and waiting parts might as well fix that tear in the headliner. Once you have striped the interior a new dash is easy to get done.
Once the entire plane has been repainted and motor rebuilt the fever will usually start to subside. Now is the time to make sure you only fly with friends that have the same plane as you or one day as you are watching you buddy land on the gravel bar a bit shorter than you with his plane of a different make and model you will start to feel a bit of a fever!!!
DENNY

Don't overlook a good ol' pacer! You actually get quite a bit of airplane for the money. I've had mine for 10 months now and am having a blast! Probably one of the bigger expenses would be the insurance, especially since you have 0 TW. I just found out the other day that B.D. Maule was the designer of the pacer back when he still worked for Piper. Anyhow, I've done the flight club thing and they do have their advantages, but it sure is nice to have a set a wings just waiting to go whenever you want.

DENNY wrote:The one unknown that really affects the price of owning a plane is the dreaded Morebetterdisease!!! Some get a bad case even before they have the plane back from pre-buy. Others fend it off for a few flights but as you start talking to your friends and hanging out at the hanger with a few beers the fever will start. Easy enough to ignore at first, but then you will find yourself surfing the web for "just a few things" on bad weather days. As the fever builds, you will realize that on nice days you fly, so no need to have that boat anymore. At this point the fever is nonstop and you find yourself driving around to airports to look into other planes and see just how the new mini iPad can be mounted.
Denial as to how bad the disease has taken hold becomes evident at annual time. You figure that while the wheel bearings are being repacked now is the time for double puck brakes and new lines (it only makes sense). Instead of replacing the battery in the intercom box it will be better and safer to just replace it with a nice in-dash PS system with jack for iPod. In case the jack fails the new Bose bluetooth headset will make it easy to call home and tell the wife you are going to be late so not to worry (ya that upgrade is not for the plane it is for the wife!!) You start to worry about how much you are spending so you decide to get a new engine monitor so you can save some money by leaning without worry of hurting engine (it will make money in the long run).
All the above is only a mild case. Hopefully at this point your friends step in and get the aircraft out of the hanger and back to flying. If not the wing mods usually hit next and seeing as you have to repaint that sportsman leading edge might as well pull the wing and redo tanks. While the wings are off and waiting parts might as well fix that tear in the headliner. Once you have striped the interior a new dash is easy to get done.
Once the entire plane has been repainted and motor rebuilt the fever will usually start to subside. Now is the time to make sure you only fly with friends that have the same plane as you or one day as you are watching you buddy land on the gravel bar a bit shorter than you with his plane of a different make and model you will start to feel a bit of a fever!!!
DENNY

Most accurate post of the year so far

I've had the fever, and will have it again....and I wouldn't have it any other way!! To try and make sense of all this airplane stuff is like trying to find the meaning of life...think about it too much and you'll just frustrate yourself. Buy it and fly it....

The good news is that since you already fly for a living, you might be able to fend off the 'gottahaveits' a bit easier than most. That will keep the upgrade costs to a minimum.

My 180 doesn't have a GPS, or even a VOR receiver for that matter, and we have no plans to add either one. There are some that think it's crazy to fly without any electronic nav capability whatsoever.

I call it 'Fun'.

All good advice here. Only thing I might add, are you going to be hauling a bunch of people/camping gear/luggage or most of the time are you going to be solo with some gear?

I would guess the great majority of guys on here dream of having the 180/185, big engined Maule, etc. but a lot of us are flying around with little 2-seat or 4-seat low powered planes. The lowly 172 or Pacer types can do most of what the typical flyer wants when kept light or flown solo. I know I have had my O-300 powered 172 all over the country and into a lot of smaller strips. Had the trusty ol bird for almost 30 years.
Many times I hav searched and dreamed of getting a 180/182/185 because I thought I needed it. Guess what, when I crunch the numbers, they just don't pencil out for the flying I do. These smaller planes have half the fuel burn and other associated costs, plus insurance on these planes is generally very low compared to the type of plane you are wanting.

Show up at a Super Cub fly-in with a tricycle geared 172 might give you a couple of 'ribbing' comments at first and then the guys finally realize that its pretty cool a guy will fly a nose dragger along side them. The idea is to fly what you can afford, so you can enjoy it and continue to keep that smile on your face. Just getting into the air is doing something the vast majority of people in this country are not lucky enough to enjoy. My 0.02

I'd look at Stinon 108s. You can get a prime example for not too much, great backcountry planes, super smooth and light on the controls, true 4 seater and one of the best looking planes out there.

IMHO the next step from a 108 in that class is a 185.

Such great information guys! Thanks!

Call around to places you would keep your plane. See what hangar rent or sales cost.

Call Avemco and see what a rough quote with your time in the types of aircraft you're interested in purchasing would cost. (My Avemco quote was about $600/year more than what I ended up going with from another company, but it's a good starting point when building a budget)

Start laying out a spreadsheet with forecast costs built in. Break these down to fixed costs and operating costs. See how many hours you could afford to fly based on the information you've collected. To me, how much I could afford to fly was a significant factor in what I wanted to purchase. Or PM me your email address and I can send you the one I made so you can modify it to fit your situation.

Then, with a solid understanding of what you can afford, start looking for the airplane of your dreams.

That's exactly what I have been doing. I guess what I'm looking for is people's information as to things I haven't thought of yet. I've been in aviation for 20 years now so I feel that I've got a pretty good grasp on what all ownership entails I'm still just scared of that blind-sided kick from behind that I didn't see coming. Haha.

Realistically good advice, but for me that would suck the fun out of it. I would rather fly first and figure out how to pay for it some other time...

The minister for fun and finance often questions the need for four planes. I think she's unreasonable.

HAHA! I think my minister for fun would literally shoot me! Like, you would actually be reading a news article about it.

The good news is that since you already fly for a living, you might be able to fend off the 'gottahaveits' a bit easier than most. That will keep the upgrade costs to a minimum.

Yeah, the helicopter I fly is full glass cockpit, dual GPS with WAAS, and Weather link with charts and the full bit. I really don't want much in my off time. Just the basics, maaayybe a GPS, IFR would be nice for the weekend trips but not required.

All good advice here. Only thing I might add, are you going to be hauling a bunch of people/camping gear/luggage or most of the time are you going to be solo with some gear?

So I realistically need 3 different planes. Haha (Don't we all). Anyway, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the backcountry flying! I flew in Alaska for 3 years and want to do a lot more backcountry stuff around here now. However, I also work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off in a city that is 600miles from where I live so I would like to be able to fly to work sometimes and then of course the 'other half' wants to be able to go on weekend trips to the fam and stuff so something with some speed and distance would be nice too. I really just want something where Myself, the "minister of fun" and the dog can take for weekend trips or just go fly around for fun. Going to and from work is just a bonus...

Really! Thanks guys for the information so far! Keep it coming!

My best advice is to evaluate both the minimum and maximum scenarios. I always keep two soft budgets in mind for my aircraft. They both turn out to be fiction as time turns in to history.

One budget is the standard minimum cash required to stay in the plane, which I ALWAYS exceed without exception, but would allow me to stay in the plane during an encounter with skinny times.

The other is the more realistic one, which includes 12 hours of monthly operation and bigger maintenance items that may come up, such as cylinder work, mag overhauls, avionics work, prop overhaul, or the dreaded engine major, which would exceed all of my budgets and might even put me in a hole.

I plan to accumulate some cash reserves in case I need to dump a few grand in to keeping her up. If no surprises come up, then I am either rewarded with some unplanned savings, or take a little of that money and make some attractive mod that I've been hoping for or plan an airplane trip.

Student BCP wrote:..... I just found out the other day that B.D. Maule was the designer of the pacer back when he still worked for Piper. .....

First time I've ever heard that. More info please, maybe on a new thread?

AlaskaPilot wrote:......Probably flying 10 hours a month or so. I'm figuring:
$700 - $1200/yr insurance
$250 - $400/mth Tie-downs or Hanger
$1000 - $2000/yr for Annual and General mx
Are these numbers fair and accurate? What are your guys experiences with price to own?....

These numbers seem pretty realistic. That said, I agree with Rob:

robw56 wrote:...If you really want to own a plane just buy one and you'll figure out a way to make it work. Owning an airplane will never make sense financially. It just has to be a passion that you're willing to spend lots of money on.

Hangar, insurance, & annual inspection costs all go on whether you fly a lot or not at all.
Hourly costs would be fuel and consumables (tires, oil, etc).
If you wanna keep your costs down, I'd recommend something that's mogas-capable, preferably 87 octane. 100LL is $5.30 at my airport, I run (mainly) 87 octane e-zero mogas currently priced at $2.30.
Burning around 11 gph in my 180, I save about $33 an hour.

Stinsons, Pacers, C172's, Maules....they're all good airplanes. But for all around duty, it's pretty tough to beat a C182 (or 180). Fast, slow, loaded up, VFR, IFR, whatever....they'll just about do it all.
IMHO the most bang for the buck is an older straight-tail 182-- there are some killer deals on them, and unless you're a tailwheel fanatic they'll will do just about everything a 180 will do.

Just remember not to shoot your wad on the purchase, because no matter how nice a plane you buy I'm sure there'll be something you need or want to fix or change on it.