Backcountry Pilot • Joining the dark side, marketable?

Joining the dark side, marketable?

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Joining the dark side, marketable?

Evening all

Got a question for the RW guys, I'm currently a 5k tt fixed wing ATP and CFI, working at a nice part 91 fixed wing gig which allows me some free time, I'm looking to start getting into in the RW world.

I found a 141 school, 30hrs and I could get my CPL RW add on, all of that would be in a R22 minus the instrument time which would be in the R44, for a bit more money I could do it all in the 44, I would come out a RW CPL SFAR in both the 44 and 22. Also have a friend who is a RW CFI, he's been helping me getting some hours when he can on relocation flights and the like.


What would be the probability, or marketability, of me getting a seat with one of the R44 tour operators to start building time???


Thanks!
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

The main consideration would be self analysis. Are you a very careful pilot like Cary, MTV, and 8GCBC? Or are you the kind of pilot who has had over ten engine failures? Everything from the Jesus nut down to the engine rotates and has to be in workable condition to keep you from falling. On the airplane that would be the engine only, which in either platform does not make you fall. In the Army where my helicopters received ten hours of maintenance for each hour of flight, I had three total loss of transmission fluid in combat, two total loss of transmission fluid IMC, one engine failure, two nicad battery thermal overruns, and one droop cam compensator failure on ITO. So other than military helicopters, where I knew the operator had the time life money, I stayed with fixed wing.

Helicopters are the cats meow for certain jobs. Where airplanes can do the same work, helicopter operators cannot economically, which usually means safely, compete.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

What would be the probability, or marketability, of me getting a seat with one of the R44 tour operators to start building time???

Ask the operators you have in mind, they should be willing to tell you what their minimums are.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:The main consideration would be self analysis. Are you a very careful pilot like Cary, MTV, and 8GCBC? Or are you the kind of pilot who has had over ten engine failures? Everything from the Jesus nut down to the engine rotates and has to be in workable condition to keep you from falling. On the airplane that would be the engine only, which in either platform does not make you fall. In the Army where my helicopters received ten hours of maintenance for each hour of flight, I had three total loss of transmission fluid in combat, two total loss of transmission fluid IMC, one engine failure, two nicad battery thermal overruns, and one droop cam compensator failure on ITO. So other than military helicopters, where I knew the operator had the time life money, I stayed with fixed wing.

Helicopters are the cats meow for certain jobs. Where airplanes can do the same work, helicopter operators cannot economically, which usually means safely, compete.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:The main consideration would be self analysis. Are you a very careful pilot like Cary, MTV, and 8GCBC? Or are you the kind of pilot who has had over ten engine failures? Everything from the Jesus nut down to the engine rotates and has to be in workable condition to keep you from falling. On the airplane that would be the engine only, which in either platform does not make you fall. In the Army where my helicopters received ten hours of maintenance for each hour of flight, I had three total loss of transmission fluid in combat, two total loss of transmission fluid IMC, one engine failure, two nicad battery thermal overruns, and one droop cam compensator failure on ITO. So other than military helicopters, where I knew the operator had the time life money, I stayed with fixed wing.

Helicopters are the cats meow for certain jobs. Where airplanes can do the same work, helicopter operators cannot economically, which usually means safely, compete.


Im careful to the point I’ve been gainfully employed in the industry and always seem to get promoted to a lead,trainer positions, always breeze through initial/recurrent training, my peers would say I handle odd situations well, etc

Two engine failures in my career, did not scratch paint.

I don’t know Cary, MTV or 8 personally so I couldn’t say.

But I’m not a “in the green” guy, I know the range my instruments like and even if it’s in the green but not where it normally sits I’ll have Mx take a look at it, I’m also pretty mechanical so that helps, always been more involved than others when it comes to helping around the shop, always do a proper preflight etc

Not sure if that answers your question, but yeah I’d say I detail oriented
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

GranitePants wrote:
What would be the probability, or marketability, of me getting a seat with one of the R44 tour operators to start building time???

Ask the operators you have in mind, they should be willing to tell you what their minimums are.


I was just trying to get a unbiased idea of what they typically are.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

NineThreeKilo,

Read "The Sky Behind Me 2nd Edition," by Byron Edgington. Don't read "Contact Flying Revised." by Jim Dulin. You will do well.

contact
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:NineThreeKilo,

Read "The Sky Behind Me 2nd Edition," by Byron Edgington. Don't read "Contact Flying Revised." by Jim Dulin. You will do well.

contact


Thanks, I’ll check it out

This one?

https://www.amazon.com/Sky-Behind-Me-2n ... pldnSite=1

Huh
Image


Read contact flying a while back, funny seems author worked for my old boss.


Any idea on industry mins for a experienced pilot, but greenhorn RW guy?
Last edited by NineThreeKilo on Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

Yes.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

Yes as in?
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

Yes, that's the book. I had military helicopter experience as did most in civilian helicopter work. Lots of Missouri Guard guys worked offshore oil two week on two weeks off. Bad equipment but better than helicopter ride outfit at Branson. Medevac is safest. I don't know how the lack of military pilots is affecting civilian helicopter job opportunities now, but I expect there is much more opportunity for non military pilots. The Army, during Vietnam era, had more pilots than all others services combined. We had 12,000 helicopters there and lost 5,086. Most of us were picked up before the blades stopped turning. I was down three hours, very exciting.

Given that local airport FBOs are doing a lot more instructing because of airline needs, I expect your chances are good.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:Yes, that's the book. I had military helicopter experience as did most in civilian helicopter work. Lots of Missouri Guard guys worked offshore oil two week on two weeks off. Bad equipment but better than helicopter ride outfit at Branson. Medevac is safest. I don't know how the lack of military pilots is affecting civilian helicopter job opportunities now, but I expect there is much more opportunity for non military pilots. The Army, during Vietnam era, had more pilots than all others services combined. We had 12,000 helicopters there and lost 5,086. Most of us were picked up before the blades stopped turning. I was down three hours, very exciting.

Given that local airport FBOs are doing a lot more instructing because of airline needs, I expect your chances are good.


Did you at one time work for Billy H in GA?
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

Yes in 1996. I had a ruptured disk just before Christmas, removed back in Ozards, and returned in Jan 97. The back seat of Champ and SuperCubs just didn't work. Made it to March but had to quit and start flying pipeline. Sitting on floor with feet straight out is hard on back.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:Yes in 1996. I had a ruptured disk just before Christmas, removed back in Ozards, and returned in Jan 97. The back seat of Champ and SuperCubs just didn't work. Made it to March but had to quit and start flying pipeline. Sitting on floor with feet straight out is hard on back.


Small world, I worked for him for a couple years, good guy, I was sorry to hear he passed
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

Yes, Billy Howell was a good guy. He had some women problems and you didn't want to show up late bi-weekly for pay, but he was fair. He fully endorsed my safe maneuvering flight techniques for zero timers. It moved them through the program quicker with techniques that would be useful to them in the Ag portion. When were you there? Was 400' pattern and ten takeoff and landings per hour still the norm when you were there? Billy had a DPE that was OK with PPL applicants who could actually fly over at...where was that town? The SuperCub dual and then observation of Pawnee in the field worked well for Ag. I have certainly worked for less flexible bosses in Ag training. No fatalities while I was there, but I lived on the field with the students. Taught them to cook breakfast and then get out and crank everything at first light. I was not OK with kids laying around and not flying.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

contactflying wrote:Yes, Billy Howell was a good guy. He had some women problems and you didn't want to show up late bi-weekly for pay, but he was fair. He fully endorsed my safe maneuvering flight techniques for zero timers. It moved them through the program quicker with techniques that would be useful to them in the Ag portion. When were you there? Was 400' pattern and ten takeoff and landings per hour still the norm when you were there? Billy had a DPE that was OK with PPL applicants who could actually fly over at...where was that town? The SuperCub dual and then observation of Pawnee in the field worked well for Ag. I have certainly worked for less flexible bosses in Ag training. No fatalities while I was there, but I lived on the field with the students. Taught them to cook breakfast and then get out and crank everything at first light. I was not OK with kids laying around and not flying.


It was like a decade ago, checkrides were out of Quincy, sounds about right for the pattern, and yeah about one T&G per tenth, bunch of citabiras, PA18, pawnee, little dual agcat and CPL complex in a PA24. I had one of the apartments too, Billy always did right by me, and I enjoyed my time there, took damn near a year for the locals to stop calling me a yankee due to my lack of southern drawl lol


Wanna go snipe hunting? ;)
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

OK. We're on the same page. Now go back to my first post on your thread here. I would not be here to give you old guy advise if I had sought helicopter jobs. I actually turned down an invite to fly civilian medevac. While in the 635th Assault Helicopter Company USARNG out of Whiteman AFB I was going to a hotel with some Lifeline guys while RON somewhere up there. One of the pilots, it actually may have been Byron, tried to talk me into applying. I was too mission oriented and I knew it. You can do a good job spraying with a lighter and safer load, when necessary. At Ag Flight we flew junk. We were able to forced land safely and taught out students to forced land safely (all the way down), but were something above the engine to turn loose in a helicopter, we would die. I wanted to fly enough to take whatever airplane job. I knew enough not to do the same in helicopters. The Lifeline job would have been safe enough, maintenance wise, but I would have landed in the wrong place and got fired. I did fly medevac in the New Mexico Guard, but that was Army. You were expected to take the mission. An Ag job with a loose operator in helicopters would probably have been fatal. I have heard bad stuff about tour jobs, but Byron had a good one in a good helicopter.

So if you go that route, no Billy Howells. They are good guys and treat you right, but they put you in junk. I had one operator give me a Taylorcraft DC-65 to go back to the Navajo Reservation to train one of my kids for a Navajo Agricultural Products Industries job on the big 40,000 acre irrigated farm in Farmington. Just before he propped me he walked up to the side window and said, "Jim, you know this airplane is not legal and not safe, right?" I answered, "yes." He said, "Fine, bye" and propped me. That crap will get you killed in helicopters.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

A career in our industry is always a odd ride

My current job now I’m flying a brand new turboprop, it is impeccable and there is no such thing as deferred mx on her, before that I worked for a very large 135 with lots of ex mil guys, mx was top notch.

I get the not flying junk, and at this stage in my career I’m not going to, operators have a bottom line and all, they got to eat, and I don’t expect six figures, a pension and my name gold leafed on the side of the helicopter, but I also expect a ship that’s kept IAW the Mx manual ADs etc,

Id hope, being a experienced pilot and not afraid of a honest days work, but admittedly new in the RW world, A I could find a position and B I could find a gig that could fall between those two goal posts?
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

I think your timing is right. I understand that those still seeking after aviation jobs have to keep their head down, but I would appreciate your comments on my just posted in the accident forum, "What do you think? Your experience as an instructor at Ag Flight and quite differently, I suspect, at normal operations would add to the discussion. My instruction, other that a few special cases, was entirely non-standard. I prepped for solo in six to ten hours and flew the dual X-C non electronic, but then turned them over to the proper instructors. The bi-annuals that I gave were Dan's AQP like. Dynamic proactive rudder on the surface, short final, and as cruise wing leveler. Low ground effect takeoff. Down drainage egress. No back pressure in turns in the pattern (I like Dan's DMMS as well.) Dutch Rolls to 45 degree bank. Energy management turns (10 degree heading change to 180 degree heading change.) Angle across on all crosswind landing using side slip and apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach. Zero brakes because small airplanes can be landed slow enough to not kill pilots.
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Re: Joining the dark side, marketable?

I’m the inverse of you, with 5K rotary. I started fixed wing, but have always flown my own planes albeit for work (floats for outfitting) but never under anyone else’s oversight. I went rotary in 2008, and stuck with that for work as it paid better here and I preferred flying helis. I just didn’t want to own one or pay the bills. So I’ll be decidedly less professional in my fixed wing experience than you, and rotary wise have done most of the jobs the industry offers here.

In my experience and discussing with FW cohorts at companies where we ran both RW and FW, it’s easier to get started FW than RW. RW here at least, is very hard to crack into, as there are so many incidents with low experience rotary pilots (the first 1500hrs are considered the dangerous times, here at least, with the first 500 being particularly worrisome). This is not to say don’t try, just that it will likely be hard, and I wouldn’t hire a 30hr rotary pilot at our company to be frank.

Here in Canada, most commercial students arrive with 100hrs, and a far poorer understanding of aviation than you’ll have. Probably better rotorcraft handling but that’s not huge, as all new rotary pilots are treated like it’s an apprenticeship. I started copilot on a larger machine, then flew 44s for 6 or so years in the oil patch. Then moved on to turbines and fires, mountains and all that. I’d highly recommend you do it, you’ll see sides of bush flying and places you never can from a fixed wing. But again, it’s gonna be hard and discouraging. You absolutely can do it though, and I’d recommend it.

Hopefully that makes sense! Hard, but worth it.
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