I'm not saying to cheat, or lie to continue your medical. All I was trying to say was to try to reach an understanding with your ME to the point that he will tell you let your medical lapse as opposed to failing it. For example, I didn't know cancer was a disqualifying condition. My ME would tell me to let my medical lapse, and he would see me again if and when I beat it.
I would of course lose my Commercial privledges and couldn't fly the Maule or even the 140, but I could still fly.
I know that is not the intent, but for example I've met people that own their own plane and have flown for a couple of hundred hours over several years, all with a student pilot's license. I don't that is the intent of a student pilot license, but as far as I know it's not illegal either.

a64,

Actually, there is a great deal of misunderstanding regarding the legalities of operating under the Sport Pilot rule.

One of those is what you just described: You come down with, say cancer--which is a non waiveable and disqualifying condition. You CANNOT continue to fly under the Sport Pilot rule, LEGALLY, because the rule says you cannot have failed or been denied a medical, AND you cannot have any KNOWN disqualifying condition.

So, even if you AME was "kind" enough to tell you not to apply, if you continued to fly under Sport Pilot rules, you would still be in violation because you had a KNOWN disqualifying condition, and were specifically informed of it by an AME.

THAT is, frankly, not a very smart approach.

Now, what are the chances of getting caught as a Sport Pilot with a known disqualifying condition?? Pretty low, but the consequences are the same if you were to be caught.

Bottom line, either go to the AME, and take your "medicine" or DON'T talk to the AME about such medical issues at all. If you do, you are essentially asking him or her to lie the same as you.

I mean no offense by this, but I sure wouldn't put my AME in that kind of position. If you fear loss of medical, go get a physical from a NON AME, and tell em you want ALL the results. Go to the FAA web site, and decide for yourself if you want to go for a flight physical.

But, please, DON'T put your AME in that position.

MTV

A64

I understood your point and agree that it is important to get all of the information you can on any condition a pilot might have. And I agree that it is important to find an AME you are comfortable with who has a good reputation of not making something out of nothing. I apologize if you thought differently.

We are on the same page.

The only thing I would question is the idea that we can all find AMEs who will do what your's does. There are only 3 in my area and I have been to all 3 of them at one time or another and none of them are going to do what you report. To be sure, legally, once you complete the form, sign it and give it to the AME, it must either be issued, denied or deferred. Deferral, BTW, is not a Denial. Just means more information and a delay.

This is why I suggest we do our own reserarch. It is really pretty easy, if nothing has changed then there is nothing to worry about. But that requires we see DRs for regular checkups. The medical standards are part of the regs and easy to understand. Like all other medical issues, best to take charge of your own medical care.

I have been flying since 1970 and have not gotten all of the medical care I should have because I did not want to "report" everything to the FAA. But now I am older and I cannot get away with that anymore so I see doctors more often, which is expected as I get older.

I really did not make my point, I got off track. I have CRS (can't remember sh*t) and I have not reported it to the FAA either.

I think there is a tendency to not report everything. I know that I provided the minimum on my form. The horror stories over the years of how the FAA treated any anomaly caused me and many other pilots to not be completely forthcoming.

But after I went through the Special Issuance for Melanoma, I have changed my opinion. Yes, they wanted more information than probably was necessary, but it was really rather painless and I feel much better knowing my medical is based on my known medical condition.

I also have a special Med. that is issued each year. The FAA requires me to send to them a statis report from my doctor that states I am well and have no recurance of cancer. I've had to do this for the last four years and will have to continue until 2013. The report has to be in Ok. within 90 days of my flight med. The result of all this is that if my doctor in Boston has any bad news for me that I feel will result in a licence refusal, I won't take the flight med. Seeing your own doctor every year before your flight doctor I feel is manditory.

Now, what are the chances of getting caught as a Sport Pilot with a known disqualifying condition?? Pretty low, but the consequences are the same if you were to be caught.

OK Mike, I'm not advocating anything here, but just what ARE the consequences of getting caught? The folks who were put away were punished for falsifying a federal document or outright fraud to collect money for nothing, not for any flying activity. As a sport pilot under the circumstances described, nobody lied on any document. I've read somewhere that the FAA really has no enforcement authority other than suspending/revoking one of their licenses. What does that do to someone who has already dismissed their authority to ground him/her on health reasons, other than increasing his useful load a tiny bit after he sends in his license? I'm sure out there in Montana or North Dakota somewhere, there are some rogues flying around with no medical and (horrors) no current annual. I don't think they can be jailed unless there is some civil violation that a sheriff or trooper can nail on them. I'm too much of a wuss to play that game. Much easier to play by the rules. But... I'm just curious.

YB

Yellowbelly wrote: Much easier to play by the rules.
YB

I have to ask, don't you mean "Much easier to play by the ever changing rules as I think they are right now" ?

Mark

Yellowbelly wrote

OK Mike, I'm not advocating anything here, but just what ARE the consequences of getting caught?

The consequences of getting caught are potentially many. The FAA can suspend or revoke certificates, impose fines and pursue criminal prosecution. Criminal prosecution is not just limited to the state or local authorities. Even if the prosecution is BS, you would need a lawyer to defend yourself, resulting in financial consequences.

There was a thread awhile back about a guy who was prosecuted by local authorities for manslaughter because he was "reckless" when flying and a passenger was killed. I suspect if it could be shown that the lack of a valid medical was a contributing factor, the locals would see that as negligence. I think the guy is going to jail for a while.

Then there is the civil side. Any sign of negligence the personal injury lawyers will be all over it. I don't know about the rest of you, but my insurance has disclaimers all over it that would attempt to make my insurance void if I am not current or the airplane is not current and legal.

Pilots are generally known to take more risks than the rest of the population. Those of us who are good at assessing risk and a bit lucky live to continue to fly. Most of what we do others think is too risky, but most of us do not. It is fun, a challenge.

So, I guess this is all about your tolerance for risk. I considered the idea of flying without a medical, after all in 38 years no one from the FAA has ever asked me for my credentials. But, what I could loose became the determing factor for me. So I decided to go through the process and get the Special Issuance medical.

Unfortunately, there are many disqualifying conditions for which there is no Special Issuance procedure. Some are a bit odd and seem too conservative.

It is a very personal decision.

Mike,
I'm operating under what I believe is called the reasonable person or something like that. I'm no lawyer, my parents were married and that apparently is a disqualifying condition, but it amounts to no one can know everything about everything. While ignorance is no excuse for the law, the law apparently has provisions that allow for if it's not reasonable for you to know about it, then you aren't held as liable for it as if it were something that it would be reasonable for you to have known. Except for military, I can't remember being taught or tested on medical disqualifying conditions.
And yes YB, I can introduce you to people that own and fly their own little airplanes without licenses, annuals, insurance or medicals. And at least one crop duster pilot that has had at least one unreported to the FAA heart attack and a splint or bypass surgery, I'm unsure which. In that case, it's kind of an open secret. The FSDO knows the deal, but no one has complained, so they aren't coming asking questions either. At least down here there is more of the "three monkey", you know, hear, speak and see no evil with them than you might imagine. Unless somebody complains, then of course they have to investigate.
And yes if and when that day comes and if I get caught at something I shouldn't be doing, then I will pay the piper, so be it.
I mean really, why do you think the sport pilot thing exists? Do you really think it is for young people to be able to afford to start flying for less money? Is a $125,000 LSA cheaper than a good 152?
Sport pilot exists for the old Dr. , lawyer, Indian Chief, whatever that is currently flying around in his Baron and doesn't want to give up flying when he can't pass his medical any longer. It's not for anything else really.

Understand in my last post, I'm not abdicating doing anything illegal, but it is done and apparently tolerated. I ASSUME that say in the case of the crop duster pilot, the FSDO knows he never carries a passenger, never flies over anyone, and honestly if he died in the cockpit then he can't kill anyone else. I assume this, I wouldn't dare ask of course.
It would be completely different if he could in some way endanger the life of property of someone else.
You know, forget I said any of this. It can't be defended really, it's wrong and in a black and white world, well, it's just wrong.
But, you know I regularly drive 65 in a 55 mph speed zone, pass by cops all of the time and haven't gotten a ticket yet

skybobb wrote:A great thread and some real good stuff posted. I am taking a medical this coming thur. and I am already on a special issuance. I am sweating it because my flying is what gives me a reason to get up in the morning and If I loose my medical I will be a lost soul.

It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission -FAA~rule . Many years ago
I was involved in a auto accident> after that i went in for my class 2 Medical and all hell broke loose > they thought that by taking a pain medication I was totally unfit to fly my old Turbo 206 . Meanwhile the flight surgeon said "crankem up" to flying in the Army. After 5 months of calls and Fax's I finally got my class 2 back -with 5 1/2 months already used up. Never again !

And that's my point: a guy like A64's crop duster, or someone else who's completely off the grid, as long as nobody's hurt and there's no property damage, (insurance is a personal thing)... If he's doing it just because he's a PILOT and loves it but not as some act of defiance to authority, then I guess I don't have any problem with it. In fact, it is possible to certify some aircraft as "glider" with a motor in the experimental category. These aircraft differ from LSA in that there is no speed limit, no altitude limit, no night VFR limit, no license required, no medical required and owner maintenance is OK. In fact, as a glider pilot, you don't need anything from the FAA. Sure, you can get an add on rating to your PPL, but you don't NEED one to fly at 40,000 feet in mountain wave or make a 400NM cross country flight like my friend just did. The FAA doesn't own the air (well, not all of it anyway) and I guess I find that kind of comforting.

a64pilot wrote: I mean really, why do you think the sport pilot thing exists? Do you really think it is for young people to be able to afford to start flying for less money? Is a $125,000 LSA cheaper than a good 152?
Sport pilot exists for the old Dr. , lawyer, Indian Chief, whatever that is currently flying around in his Baron and doesn't want to give up flying when he can't pass his medical any longer. It's not for anything else really.

Well, it's also to reel in all the pilots out there who were trained by someone who was trained by a one-time paraglider who decided to try powered flight and passed the Fundamentals of Instruction exam.

It's a less strict curriculum for educating pilots who won't be flying heavier aircraft in less than perfect conditions. Part 103 is actually very difficult to qualify for, given the weights of small aircraft, and the whole USUA Basic Flight Instructor provision was a joke. "A passenger may be carried only for the purpose of instruction..." Yeah right! There were guys using that provision who never once gave a minute of dual.

But, yeah...it's also a don't-ask-don't-tell solution for old pilots.

Oh, boy, is there some misinformation out there....

Starting with the last first:

Yellowbelly--So sorry, but to fly a glider (sailplane) you still must possess a pilot certificate, either Light Sport (if the sailplane is of that category) PPL, Comm, etc. You do NOT have to possess a medical certificate, even, as you say for a motorglider, BUT you still have to self certify, according to FAA rules, just like for Sport Pilot rules.

Above 18,000, be careful, that's class A airspace, and the airplane has to be appropriately equipped, etc,

a64,

The courts have said that if you are a pilot, it is expected that you know the rules set forth by the FAA. That's why the FAA requires ground training and a written test. If you took the test 30 years ago, nevertheless, it is expected that you must keep up on the rules. That is one reason we're expected to satisfactorily complete a Flight Review every other year, yes--even in light sport.

No court in the land would accept that you knowing the rules to operate an airplane legally is an "unreasonable" requirement, or that a reasonable person shouldn't have to know, understand and abide by those rules, particularly the rules on medical certification. Try that one in court, and you'll wind up owing Uncle a lot of $$$ and you'll get sick of attorneys.

Everyone here seems to forget that when you fly an airplane, you often operate OVER other humans, houses, etc. Many of us also carry unsuspecting and maybe even innocent passengers with us. Kill someone on the ground or a passenger, or just hit someone's house with your airplane, and I can almost assure you that you will be sued for everything you ever had, and will have. As in the case of the fellow recently who was charged with vehicular homicide, you may go to jail as well.

As the man said, if you have insurance, and you don't have a medical, OR you simply ignore the medical self certification regs, your insurance is invalid, and you're wasting your money.

I understand that it is difficult for many folks to insure in the LSA class, some of which may be due to medical considerations, I don't know.

The example of a crop duster operating without a medical is pretty far out. Those folks have to possess a 137 certificate, they have a POI, and there is some oversight. Same goes for liability. Drop an Air Tractor on someone's house, fly into a wire (and that happens a LOT) and you will be talking to someone. No medical....? Pretty bad idea.

I'm not about to suggest that there are not people out there flying without medicals or licenses. My point is...if you are going to do that, just be well aware of the risks and potential consequences.

Do you have any financial resources? You won't when they get done with you, if you screw up.

Yellowbelly--the recent group of pilots who got caught by the FAA and punished were in two groups: Those who'd had DUI's and had not reported them on their medicals, and those who were claiming a government disability based on a disqualifying condition, but who failed to report those conditions on their medical applications.

Both groups were punished civilly by the FAA (substantial fines, plus loss of all privileges) for falsifying a medical application. Next time you go for a flight physical, READ the fine print on the medical application--its' pretty clear.

MTV

What kind of medical is required for this? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288809,00.html

Tim

182 STOL Driver, I had a similar circumstance... I was in an auto accident (went uder a Semi) and was laid upi for nearly 2 years. Medical was put on hold due to taking meds. Took me over a year to get it back and ever since then it has been "touch and go" on getting my 3rd class issued. Battles with the FAA are always in my thoughts when it comes time for renewal. I still need the pain meds occasionally and will NOT fly when taking them, but when will the FAA determine when it is not considered "occasional"? I am not renewing my medical again and am going the LSA route. I already own a Champ (with an O-235) that is LSA legal and will be selling the 172 (or give it to my son). I will stop flying when I feel my pain problems out-weigh my being able to safely fly.


Skybob,
There are much better planes out there than going to ultra-lights. SOme of the new LSA aircraft will enable you to do cross-countries in relative comfort and with decent speed. There are also severl that are good little STOL planes. The Rans 7, Legend cub, Sport Cub and several others out there of the old aircraft era aren't bad either. Old Champs, Taylorcraft, etc.

Keith

MTV,
The Ag pilot has a class two medical. The last heart attack and I believe the stint just didn't happen. Yes, I'm sure that invalidates the medical, so in reality he has no medical. Point is that everyone, FAA included knows that the last trip to the hospital wasn't indigestion, and it would of course be the easiest thing in the world to prove he isn't fit to fly, but no one wants to because even the powers that be understand that he doesn't endanger anyone but himself.
Like I said, I shouldn't have brought it up, I am by no means recommending anyone to lie or any thing else, because if nothing else when you start lying, when do you stop?

a64,

From your comment: "it would of course be the easiest thing in the world to prove he isn't fit to fly".

Not really. Medical records are private, and held VERY closely by the medical community, for good reason. Note that any time you have medical work done, they make you sign a records release, and THAT is just for release to YOUR insurer. Insurers also have some big time liability if they start spilling private information.

So, the point is, FAA does not have access to those kinds of records, and can't get them. The only way they can get the DUI records is because they have access to the National Driver's database. Same with disability information.

So, if a guy doesn't report something like that, they probably aren't just looking the other way, they simply couldn't prove it. But, to suggest that the only one he is risking is himself is false as well. Ever see a sprayer do a big pull-up over top of a house?

Nevertheless, if someone fails to report, it's hard to prove, till something really bad happens.

MTV

DOH!! (sound of headslap). Is Mike ever wrong?? This is me backpedalling while eating crow. What was I drinking? Yes, MTV is right: you do need an FAA certificate to operate a glider here. I was thinking on the wrong continent. In Australia, gliding is administered by the GFA, Gliding Federation of Australia, a self-regulating body outside of government and independent of the CAA which is the equivalent of the FAA here (only more bureaucratic if you can imagine that). GFA sets standards for certification and airworthiness for gliders and their pilots and was based on the collection of clubs that existed in 1949 or so. They have managed to keep gliding independent of the government so far. We should be so lucky.

Sorry for the mislead.
YB

As for the unlicensed, uninsured, unmedical-ed, unmaintained aviator: I was originally thinking of the old guy, living on a farm or ranch, who owns his plane outright, flies from his own strip every couple of weeks, goes out and counts his cattle or camps out where the roads don't go, then flies back to the barn. This is the opposite end of the spectrum from dropping the Airtractor on the school bus that ignites the retirement home filled with the ageing parents of lawyers. Most of us fall somewhere in between. I think the first guy doesn't need that much regulating, but I'm disheartened when we immediately think of protecting ourselves from the second scenario.

Yellowbelly wrote:As for the unlicensed, uninsured, unmedical-ed, unmaintained aviator: I was originally thinking of the old guy, living on a farm or ranch, who owns his plane outright, flies from his own strip every couple of weeks, goes out and counts his cattle or camps out where the roads don't go, then flies back to the barn.

That guy can't, and won't, be the one to go out and buy a $125,000 Cessna Butthopper to be "legal" and fly LSA. Nor should he. Who the hell is he going to hurt? Will I go that route when then medical goes for good? Don't know, and don't really worry about it. I'm just as dangerous in a 1320 pound Champ as I am in a 1500 pound C150.

The pilot I'm more concerned about is the perfectly healthy 25 year old baby ATP flying left seat in a regional jet, making his 15th approach to minimums for the day after a night of boozing with his buddies. That impaired skill level, and lack of overall experience is the one that's gonna whack the nursing home in the fog.

Gump

Gump,

There ya go, interjecting a load of logic into the discussion......

I had the experience of, whilst wandering through the MSP maze the other day, meeting a fellow who used to be a student, then an instructor, and now is wearing three stripes.

I think he'll do a good job.

But, he still looks twelve to me. At least he got a haircut....

A friend of mine, recently retired from flying 747's said that recently his wife leaned into the cockpit of a jet they were getting aboard, looked at the crew and asked them if their parents knew where they were.....

Now, THAT is cold..

MTV

MTV