I know this is somewhat covered in the "landing roads" topic but I'm curious about landing on private property. I had a fine fellow from the intity with three initials that's "here to help us" tell me that (anywhere) we land non emergency must be designated with them as an airstrip. Therefore if you land on your own property or anywere repeatedly or once on purpose; you are breaking regs and its illegal. I can't keep up with it all. I go by the adage, if its fun, it's probay illegal. If not, it will be soon. Especially in this technology age. You can't blow your nose anymore without someone being scared for theyre life and calling 911. Sad what we've come to and where were headed. Wish everyone would just mind they're own Business. Ok, went Into a little rant there, sorry. But what do yall think about it? Whats the "LAAAWWW".....

That is not correct. So in other words all the landings in AK or Nevada on BLM land or for that matter my own property is illegal? Not true. I have had this very conversation with my of those folks with the same 3 letters. Heck one of our pilots here is a law enforcement officer for the FS and went on to share what was legal and what was not. I do know if differs from state to state but as a general comment its simply not so. I know this for certain.

AKT

That's what I thought akt, but do you know where or what we can use to back that up? I've learned in dealing with these people that if they want to get you, they will. I nothing else they can use the "wreck less" stamp. So frustrating. Do they just pull crap like this out of the air!?? Just like when I bent my first 180 and he said because to ribs were bent it was an accident, not an incident. I said where does it say that. And he said, " I can't remember but ill find out and get back with you. Then I got a careless operation of aircraft in air citation for having engine failure!!!! Crazy!!! I could go on and on. Infuriating. O yeah. Also got a "flying in airworthy aircraft "because it had no interior!! Better calm down b4 I have a heart attack. Guilty until proven innocent is the motto in my opinion.

The rules and regs are out there if you want to search hard enough to find them. You will find more than a few that conflict. If you get hauled before an administrative law judge good luck. I feel they will side with LE. You will spend more $$ than you want to make it go away.

IMHO
Don't land on public lands where people are near. Everybody has cameras. People are the problem. No people, no problem.

G'Day

55wagon wrote:That's what I thought akt, but do you know where or what we can use to back that up? I've learned in dealing with these people that if they want to get you, they will. I nothing else they can use the "wreck less" stamp. So frustrating. Do they just pull crap like this out of the air!?? Just like when I bent my first 180 and he said because to ribs were bent it was an accident, not an incident. I said where does it say that. And he said, " I can't remember but ill find out and get back with you. Then I got a careless operation of aircraft in air citation for having engine failure!!!! Crazy!!! I could go on and on. Infuriating. O yeah. Also got a "flying in airworthy aircraft "because it had no interior!! Better calm down b4 I have a heart attack. Guilty until proven innocent is the motto in my opinion.

Then your next question to him should have been "what regulation are you referring to sir because I don't see it in my book"?

aktahoe1 wrote:Heck one of our pilots here is a law enforcement officer for the FS and went on to share what was legal and what was not. I do know if differs from state to state but as a general comment its simply not so. I know this for certain.

AKT

AKT,

We have ton's of FS land here in Northern AZ. I don't really understand what's legal and what's not, so I'd like to know what were the main points according to the FS LEO/Pilot?

As far as private land goes, I remember a landowner/pilot who fought tooth and nail with the Coconino county commissioners and his neighbors to allow rotor operation from his acreage west of Flagstaff just a few days a week, so I suspect the regulations for what's allowed can vary depending on your city, county, state, etc. Would like to know the specifics if anyone knows.

http://azdailysun.com/news/helicopter-c ... da38d.html

I believe this was the same guy who died with his family 1 1/2 years later when the eurocopter went down north of scottsdale.... freaking tragic.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 2140&key=1

Then your next question to him should have been "what regulation are you referring to sir because I don't see it in my book"?

I did. Didn't matter. And yes I do try and adhere to no people no problem. But that's not always for sure. Like I always say. They can bend the rules;"interpret", them to whatever suits. If they want to get you; and more and more do; they will unless you have extremely deep pockets and then that doesn't matter most of the time. I just get frustrated there is no cut and dry answers. It's like trying to play a game by the rules and the referees change the rules at any given time. Just need to quit crying I guess and come to the realization that's just the way it is. It's not going to get better. Just enjoy what we have left. I'm not much of a complainer on things other than these type of situations. To much of a patriot I guess.

There is a legal difference between landing once, and on a regular basis. The helicopter case which was a result of buying land next to a complete phallus (my banker knows him and has a fairly low opinion of the complainant). He wanted the designation as a heliport on his land. Frequently you want to do this, so you can repeatedly land, and it satisfies your insurance carrier. Read carefully your policy about landing off airport or un-improved landing sites. You ding it, you pay for it.

Remember, the Federal Amusement Agency (one of the pantheon of federal humor agencies) can always pull the unsafe to you or others card anytime the want. Kind of like conduct unbecoming in the military. So the best approach is if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound principal. Like another poster mentioned, cell phones could be the rope to hang you. So discrete no people, nobody knows. Just don't screw up.

Pretty much like most things. If nothing goes wrong and noone is around, your ok.

Most new laws have a clause that states enforcement is at the discretion of the law enforcement officer. In other words, even when LEO is wrong, he's right. Laws are written by LE for LE. That's how the dickheads in the DOT work. One branch pours 50 caliber rocks on the road as "sand" and "chip seal" while their other branch passes out $100 citations for broken windshields. The good thing is, the sheriff has more authority than state and federal on private land so if you get permission to land from the sheriff's office (as I do in Montana) the feds can go to hell.

Amen nosedragger!!

Have him refer to FAR 157.1 (c), it is the exception to the rule requiring notification of the FAA of intended use of a landing site, there are other exceptions but this is the one most likely to apply. Complying with FAR 157 is what you have to do if you put a strip in your back yard and want to use it without restriction on frequency or duration. If you want to use it more than 3 times a week or for more than a year you are required to notify the FAA of intended use. If they determine that there is no conflict with other airport or traffic operations you are OK to use as frequently and for as long as you like. In fact you are required to notify the FAA if you intend to stop using the landing area. The FAA does not regulate where landing sites are located or what may be used as a landing site as long as use of a site does not create or have the potential to create a conflict with operations at an existing site. Hope this helps.

Tim

If a land owner gives you permission to land on his property (like a farm) you can land. If the land owner decides to make a "Designated strip" for landing the rules change. Thats when the FAR above comes into play about notification. You can land anywhere you choose on your own property in Echo or Gulf airspace. Obviously this would not work in a congested area or in your backyard in Portland, LA, Seattle, etc. But then again most of that is Bravo or Charlie air space.

Example: Look at all the landings you see in lets say Ohio....Those are legal as permission has been granted. Even when they are the same landings over and over. I can think of a 100 different gravel bars in Alaska where on any given weekend you have 20 planes there. Not a designated runway. The insurance deal is separate obviously. I have always been a believer that if you ding it somewhere other than a "Designated runway" your going to pay. Yes you can pay extra to have coverage for unimproved landings but thats a different topic. Example: I land daily in the grass next to the actual runways at various airports. I am fully aware that if I ding the plane I am on my own and will more than likely get handed some sort of violation from someone because they have nothing better to do. Dont bend it, your fine. Whats the difference between landing in the grass next to the long asphalt or somewhere in the sticks? Simple...there isa runway 10 feet to the left or right and the legal person who arrives will say you were not competent in landing on the runway. Yes we will disagree with that person but thats how it works unfortunately. If the airport says dont do that anymore, then dont.

As for landing on roads, find out who controls the right of way. Our FS officers said verbatim, Its ok to land on the road as you become a motorized vehicle. Just obey the laws as you would in a motorized vehicle. But dont dare land in the perfect meadow next to the dirt road as motorized vehicles are not allowed there.

Bureau of Reclamation (in this area) controls many of the reservoirs to the high water mark. If the resi has a boat wake speed limit a float plane cannot land there, odds are your not going to be able to either. Even if you see a Jeep on the beach...(that one is still a grey area for me honestly but I avoid them). Other resi's boats can go fast, motos can rally around everywhere, Jeeps can drive and do broadies all over the beach, a plane can land. I have had zero trouble from the many green trucks that come out to visit and say hello when I land. This also comes from our FS law enforcement gentlemen whom we fly with. All of this pertains to the area I am in and of course may be different where you live. Everywhere is different for certain. I even went to the extent of obtaining an OHV sticker for my 3 wheeler. Thats what it is after all is it not?

Nevada...its mostly BLM. Same rules apply as above. We are a motorized vehicle with wings and you can land. Again I have had my share of folks arrive on horse, jeep and covered wagon (not really the wagon) to say hello and re affirm my landing. Its legal. Same goes out there for you if you ball it up. Odds are your on your own unless you have that really expensive off field insurance. If the guy says you can land on his 100 acre ranch you can legally. I have walked into the Reno FSDO and asked this very question. The response is "do you have permission from the land owner?" "Is it congested?"

If someone is around in any of these places for good practice I just avoid as many folks just want to stir the pot.

Another example: One of our members and I used to fly daily together (until he traded his 180 for a 206) and land at various ranches. One day we proceeded to land at a ranch that the neighboring ranch did not know we had permission to land on. That neighbor proceeded to call the feds saying that the yellow 180 was buzzing his house looking in the windows at his wife. When in fact he was performing a go around and landing in the field we had permission for. The feds said that since we had permission to land on the property he was OK and that he should try to utilize a different approach path (if it was safe) from now on to land in that field.

I could give another 10 examples.

I think OregonMaule said it best. Dont land if your in question and dont know the answer of ownership and by all means just avoid the people out there as all of them have cameras and that can be interpreted any way the judge see's fit unfortunately.

AKT

Read the FAR, just because people do it and it is on private property with permission, it doesn't mean you are in compliance with FAR 157.

[quote="aktahoe1"]

As for landing on roads, find out who controls the right of way. Our FS officers said verbatim, Its ok to land on the road as you become a motorized vehicle. Just obey the laws as you would in a motorized vehicle. But dont dare land in the perfect meadow next to the dirt road as motorized vehicles are not allowed there.

AKT,

I'm not sure if I understand this first statement with regard to "right of way." In California at least, in order to land on a road you must first get permission from the public agency having primary jurisdiction over traffic. In most cases this would be the Highway Patrol as most other roads would be in congested areas. Please take a look at California Public Utilities Code 21403 (b) (3). The PUC code closely follows the FARs but has some additional authorities for the state.

Having cited the above, if a deserted road is the best landing area I'm going to choose it and hope that common sense prevails with whoever comes along.

Prop

AKT you have a cool FS LEO over there! Good discussion.

I've told this story before here but it's related so here goes again... I landed at an old forest service strip, used decades ago by them, in the San Diego Back country... We call this strip Smugglers cove.. It sits on a stream that connects two reservoirs in East San Diego County... It is private property sandwiched between gov't land... THe land is owned by a chicken farmer on the ridge above and far from the strip.. in fact because the strip lies at the bottom of the canyon he can't even see it ... THe area is loaded with illegal aliens, or as our politically correct guvmint calls them.. undocumented international travelers...anyway I landed as I had numerous times in the past and as I was enjoying the solitude of the place I noticed movement at the far end of the strip... It was two people jogging in my direction with rifles at port arms... Not knowing who I was about to come in contact with I entered the plane and started up... they went to the side of the strip still about 2000 feet with from me.. I then took off anc climbed out at a max climb rate until I was directly over them.. It was then that I saw them about 500 feet below looking through binoculars at me that I realized they were probably law enforcement of some kind... Several weeks later it came to me through the grapevine that the Border patrol was looking for a red and white Cessna with the first number of 7...I flew a tripacer at that time but I knew it was me they wanted.... I called the border patrol headquarters and got a sergeant who knew of the "incident"... He wanted my identification and wanted to talk to me personally as he claimed his agents were assaulted by me.... His agents claimed that I dove my aircraft at them with the intention of hitting them...now everyone reading this will immediately know of the absurdity of that statement... I asked him what would have happened had I in fact done that and hit them .. He stated I would have killed them which was why he wanted my name. I explained what would have happened to me had I indeed hit his officers at which point he agreed I might be right.. I told him his officer was lieing and that I didn't appreciate their accusations.. at that point I said goodby.Now I was a San Diego Police officr for 8 years and my son is a NYC Homicide detective and I'm as law enforcement oriented as anyone but I know that some officers lie to substantiate thier position ..Rob is right make damn sure no one is anywhere near where you land..

The only down side with landing on roads and professing to be an OHV is the rules have changed on much of the federal lands. I have been an avid OHV driver my whole life. Prior to 2000 ish. If it was not marked CLOSED it was open to OHVs. NOW!! if it is not marked open it is CLOSED!! This is for OHVs NOT NOT!! street legal vehicles. An airplane is NOT a street legal vehical. So IMHO if you land on FS/BLM road you might be spending $$$$ to fix a mess, if you get caught.

Another issue is a lot of FS/BLM roads will have posted speed limits, usually like 35mph. This is why we can't land on a bunch of our ocean beaches in Oregon. They are open to vehicles but the speed limit is 25 mph.

Again: no people, no problem.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one sees it, does it make a sound? If a airplane lands in the wilderness, beach, FS road did it happen? I think not!!

G'Day

another incident i had is a dry lakebed out by Borego springs.. Half Hill I believe it's called... Off roaders bikers of every description do donuts and it's streaked with tracks of all kinds... Three of us landed on it one Sunday afternoon... after about 5 minutes on the ground we saw a green pickup coming code 3 in our direction about a mile off...discretion is the better part of sticking around so we all took off and departed the area just as he drove onto the lakebed and stopped and got out as we roared off... I suppose it was illegal to land there.. don't know...didn't want to meet him...but I do know this... we left less evidence we were there than all those off roaders...

One of the public impressions of aircraft landing someplace other than an airport is; your smuggling drugs. It is a rather strong opinion near the southern border (no problem up North, they just think the Frostbacks are fleeing the cold). The California desert ares used to be fun to land in back in the 70's. When I did my few lessons out of Santa Monica, my obese instructor used to direct me to fly down to the Salton Sea. We would land on some dozer cut on the north east side, taxi to the road and down it to a restaurant (food, naturally) and park in the parking lot. Nobody paid us no mind. I suppose I would be up against the plane with tie wraps on my wrists now.

In the 50's, when I was a wee kid, my dad used to land a Navion in the meadow in back of the house in Seattle! Nobody cared. Things have changed and TV has portrayed most small aircraft owners subsequent to Sky King, as villains. So the public perceives us as such. So if we are off airport, our intentions are not in the public good.