Hi, dumb question here...

I see a lot of short remote strips are gravel. However during my private training it was emphasized to me not to taxi on gravel with the power above idle as it would damage the propeller and possibly the airframe and/or other airplanes and people. If this is true, how do you take off and land on a gravel runway? Is it just part of the risk, or am I misunderstanding what "gravel" means?

Well I land and takeoff on a lot of gravel. One of the things I was taught is to bring power on slowly and evenly. Not just jamming the power in. This will keep the prop from picking up and throwing as much gravel. Ive yet to get a ding in my prop from gravel, and no noticeable dings on the horizontals. I know it will happen eventually.

David

They didn't want you to play the odds with their equipment.

Skinner's advise is spot on.

I have been into many gravel strips without a problem. A friend recently went into his first and the result was the need to purchase a new prop.

I am willing to play the odds.

Paul

In 40+ years of flying, admittedly mostly from pavement, I've dinged all of one prop blade--and that was on pavement. I've landed on gravel strips many times with several different airplanes, I kept my airplane on a gravel strip for a year, and the way to avoid damage on take off is to let the airplane get rolling at lower rpm and gradually increase power as the speed increases. That minimizes any rock movement, either into the prop or against the tail.

That means that you don't do a static run-up while stopped, you don't use high power settings to get rolling, and you don't firewall the throttle from a dead stop.

Cary

Yoke or stick ALL the way to the aft stop when taxiing, find a piece of concrete/asphalt to do your runup over, or do a rolling runup with minimum power, smooth power applications, rolling takeoffs (as you roll onto the runway, keep it rolling and takeoff--don't stop THEN takeoff). If you're in a big wind, taxi downwind VERY slow to prevent rocks thrown off the tires going forward into prop. Smooth tires (no tread) really help to prevent tires from throwing stones at tail feathers.

I have thousands of takeoffs/landings on gravel. Never dinged a prop. Pilot technique is essential, and a dumb ass pilot can ruin a prop in one flight. Tail feathers generally take more of a beating than the prop, if the pilot has his/her head up and paying attention. Leading edge of stabilizer may need some leading edge tape.

MTV

I have flown King Airs and 1900s (as well as Goose, Carvan, 185 and so on) from gravel for about 20 years now with very few problems. It's all technique. Some of the best techiniques are:

Get rolling with smooth and positive power application (you're trying outrun any gravel your prop (s) picks up)

Once rolling...don't stop. So get your "before take off checklist" done before you roll and then just roll right into the take-off

Don't do run ups on gravel...you can check mags and the like at low RPM but no hi-power run ups

Keep the momentum up when taxing and turning (especially turning around). You may have to taxi a bit quicker than normal so you don't loose momentum in the turn. Don't taxi fast enough that your tires are tossing up rocks though. This doesn't mean using higher power settings. It means letting the speed build at idle (or slightly above idle) and get going a bit faster than usual and then just stay off the brakes. If you have to add too much power as you enter a turn in order to get turned around, you will have about a %99 chance of doing damage to the prop or airframe. You will likely have to add a bit of power before you enter the turn and tha't OK. You can always tell a rookie...they get halfway turned around and lose momentum until they almost come to a stop. Then they add a ton of power to finish the turn, then they come off the power only to add it in again to start the take off run...bad technique!!

If you are flying a trike and you're using the "soft field technique", nail it. Don't let the nose wheel "skip" off the runway as you take off or roll out from a landing. That sprays gravel. If you can't do a solid "soft field technique", you're better off not doing one at all. Practice the "soft field technique", on pavement until you find the sweet spot for keeping the nosewheel off.

Don't taxi the plane someplace your brain has not visited 15 seconds ahead of time. Keep looking way ahead and pick a track based on what looks like the "best gravel". It's kinda like a 4x4 picking a line to take on a tough trail.

Prior to departing gravel it may help to sweep the gravel from under the prop (s) (This is SOP where I currently work)

Limit the time you run the airplane without moving. You may need to run the plane for a while to warm up so be sure to sweep under the prop (s) for sure in this case.

Once you have landed, just roll right into your parking spot (remember to keep a bit of extra momentum) and shut down right away. On really loose, sandy gravel, I'll even shut down on the roll and come to a stop "dead stick" if I think I'll pick up anything.

Protect the nosewheel. Keep the stick/yoke back all the time on a nose gear plane untill the engine is shut down. This gives you a little bit more prop clearance too...every 1/8th of an inch helps!

Not all gravel is the same. The size of the gravel (some is too big to pick up with the prop), amout of soil mixed in, drainage, surface grade and so on will all play a part in how "good" the strip is. You have to evaluate each strip individually and even the same strip under various conditions. You may have to change your tecniques slighty to accomodate they various types of gravel.

Practice on grass. Especially taxi and turning around. Pavement practice is good but it's tough to get a feel for the momentum managment.

You will eventually do some damage if you operate from gravel alot. I punched a hole in the side of a 1900 with a small rock . I didn't even feel or hear it and the plane presurized just fine. It came off the prop but the prop was fine .

Realistically though, if you're careful, gravel opertions are well worth the managable hazards.

...Hope this helps

I can't remember the last time I landed on pavement. Virtually all of my landings and take offs are on gravel or sod and I have yet to put a "ding" in my prop. I mostly do wheel landings and keep the power in. Take offs are usually a slow rolling start. Smooth, 31" bush wheels help. I used to fly my Maule with GarAeros and they would throw material forward from the tread, but once again I didn't ding a prop (often wondered why). The tail feathers can take a beating, but I think wheel landings help (along with an occasional patch job if you puncture the skin).

Put some rock dings in the tail feathers over the years but a small price to pay for all the great times I have had in the back country.
Dale

Obviously alloy can be dented with any sized dent, from small to ugly. Whereas fabric will with luck, bounce smaller stones away but puncture with larger stones and require patching.

Do you guys experienced on both types have a feel for which material is more likely to end up looking crappier in 5 years time?

Battson wrote:Do you guys experienced on both types have a feel for which material is more likely to end up looking crappier in 5 years time?

That requires a subjective answer, but from what I have seen, tail-draggers get the most abuse from gravel including dings on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer and an occasional hole in the fabric. Damage to metal tail feathers seem limited to paint chips of the horizontal stabilizer and under-skin, but rarely significant dents to the under-skin although I have seen some pretty chewed up leading edges. I guess if left undone, they could both start looking a little ratty after five years, but occasional touch-up with patches and paint would be advisable both from a cosmetic and safety stand point. I think fabric airplanes require a bit more attention to damage then metal planes.

Some Cessnas come w/ a strip of rubber on the leading edge of the horizontal stab., will fit others.

macktruckfarm wrote:Some Cessnas come w/ a strip of rubber on the leading edge of the horizontal stab., will fit others.

Good point. A lot of rubberized leading edges up here.

Battson wrote:Obviously alloy can be dented with any sized dent, from small to ugly. Whereas fabric will with luck, bounce smaller stones away but puncture with larger stones and require patching.

Do you guys experienced on both types have a feel for which material is more likely to end up looking crappier in 5 years time?

I have a hard time getting two years out of a set of cub tail feathers. My cessna tail is 60 years old...

On the other hand, I wouldn't subject the cessna to the spots that are really the culprit of damage on the cub...

Northrnguy pretty much nails it. I'd add two other recommendations: park facing into the wind and, if possible, park facing downhill.

If the wind is coming from behind you it will blow rocks back into your prop while your plane is stationary. And keep this in mind if you back taxi with a strong breeze because there may be a fine line between fast enough to keep the wind from blowing rocks back into the prop and going so fast that the tires throw rocks forward.

If you can park facing downhill you won't need as much power to get moving, and that will reduce the chances of picking up gravel.

FabricAndWires wrote:Hi, dumb question here...

I see a lot of short remote strips are gravel. However during my private training it was emphasized to me not to taxi on gravel with the power above idle as it would damage the propeller and possibly the airframe and/or other airplanes and people. If this is true, how do you take off and land on a gravel runway? Is it just part of the risk, or am I misunderstanding what "gravel" means?

Some pilots want an airplane that is totally pristene in every respect. Whether it's a Cirrus, Bonanza, Cub or 182. That's okay, I appreciate where they are coming from. You first need to ask yourself if it would seriously bother you to have a few dings in your prop or horizontal stab etc. If the answer is yes then I would say stick to pavement only.

If you are like me and most of the pilots here the increased wear and tear is worth the price of admission!
Do what you can to minimize the damage and have some fun!
Otherwise you run the risk of the best flying story you have in the future is how you landed one time at an airport where the PAPI lights were not working!!!!

SE6601KF wrote:You first need to ask yourself if it would seriously bother you to have a few dings in your prop or horizontal stab etc. If the answer is yes then I would say stick to pavement only.

Trent, I don't think it has to be as black and white as this. It's perfectly reasonable to have a sense of preservation for your expensive flying machine while using it as intended. I'm glad OP asked this question, because I too have wondered this, even though I've landed gravel plenty and just used common sense like has been mentioned here already.

Of course I'd like to be as kind to my prop as reasonably possible, while doing things with it that may damage it. That concern isn't a reason to avoid unimproved surfaces altogether. The question also has merit because prop damage is more than just cosmetic, there are safety/failure concerns that go along with stress risers. I also can't tell you with a straight face that I wouldn't cringe seeing dings in my $17,000 MT prop*.

I used to be big into motocross racing. When I would get a shiny new bike, I would notice every new scratch on the plastic and the frame. It hurt, but it never stopped me from riding the crap out of it until it was time to sell.

*This is fantasy, I don't have a MT prop.

Zzz wrote:

SE6601KF wrote:You first need to ask yourself if it would seriously bother you to have a few dings in your prop or horizontal stab etc. If the answer is yes then I would say stick to pavement only.

Trent, I don't think it has to be as black and white as this. It's perfectly reasonable to have a sense of preservation for your expensive flying machine while using it as intended. I'm glad OP asked this question, because I too have wondered this, even though I've landed gravel plenty and just used common sense like has been mentioned here already.

Of course I'd like to be as kind to my prop as reasonably possible, while doing things with it that may damage it. That concern isn't a reason to avoid unimproved surfaces altogether. The question also has merit because prop damage is more than just cosmetic, there are safety/failure concerns that go along with stress risers. I also can't tell you with a straight face that I wouldn't cringe seeing dings in my $17,000 MT prop*.

I used to be big into motocross racing. When I would get a shiny new bike, I would notice every new scratch on the plastic and the frame. It hurt, but it never stopped me from riding the crap out of it until it was time to sell.

*This is fantasy, I don't have a MT prop.

Zzz,
I think I didn't explain it quite right.
What I mean is there are some guys who if they ding a prop or get a scratch on their plane from landing on a gravel strip it would literally cause them to loose sleep and never attempt another non pavement landing. What I am suggesting is that if a person has this type of personality then why put themselves through the stress. There is nothing wrong with this type of personality it's just different from the way I think. I too cringe when I get a ding in the prop or a rock or log flips up and smacks the tail. But I am willing to take the risk. (with limitations of course)

SE6601KF wrote:

Zzz wrote:

SE6601KF wrote:You first need to ask yourself if it would seriously bother you to have a few dings in your prop or horizontal stab etc. If the answer is yes then I would say stick to pavement only.

Trent, I don't think it has to be as black and white as this. It's perfectly reasonable to have a sense of preservation for your expensive flying machine while using it as intended. I'm glad OP asked this question, because I too have wondered this, even though I've landed gravel plenty and just used common sense like has been mentioned here already.

Of course I'd like to be as kind to my prop as reasonably possible, while doing things with it that may damage it. That concern isn't a reason to avoid unimproved surfaces altogether. The question also has merit because prop damage is more than just cosmetic, there are safety/failure concerns that go along with stress risers. I also can't tell you with a straight face that I wouldn't cringe seeing dings in my $17,000 MT prop*.

I used to be big into motocross racing. When I would get a shiny new bike, I would notice every new scratch on the plastic and the frame. It hurt, but it never stopped me from riding the crap out of it until it was time to sell.

*This is fantasy, I don't have a MT prop.

Zzz,
I think I didn't explain it quite right.
What I mean is there are some guys who if they ding a prop or get a scratch on their plane from landing on a gravel strip it would literally cause them to loose sleep and never attempt another non pavement landing. What I am suggesting is that if a person has this type of personality then why put themselves through the stress. There is nothing wrong with this type of personality it's just different from the way I think. I too cringe when I get a ding in the prop or a rock or log flips up and smacks the tail. But I am willing to take the risk. (with limitations of course)

Veering off topic here, but I gotta say I soooo agree with the thought process here. The first time I re covered my cub, I took a huge amount of time and paid extra attention to the little details... When I was done it was pretty spiffy, and I took a lot of grief from friends about how I wouldn't be able to take it in the rough stuff anymore

I have never quite understood this thought process ? One trip to a SCORE, NASCAR , etc race and you will see many, many examples of vehicles that are worth the price of several cubs. All shined up and show pretty, and all ready to take a flogging I'm not too sure I'd like to see my cub take... After its all said and done, a little maintenance and elbow grease and they're just as shiny and ready for business the next week....

To qualify what I said about my cub tail, I could likely stretch that time out by double or even triple if I didn't mind stacking patches on patches, or having quite a bit of duct tape on the elevator bottoms. I just find that a set of elevators can be made to look new inside of a couple days, so why not?


Having said that, I can tell you that my experience with the MT ding scenario is that it will likely go much further than cringing, and lead to much 'colorful' language

Take care, Rob

Rob-I've lived on the wrong side of the tracks. I have flow props off of wrecked spray planes that had been straightened and tracked by the local mechanic. Like the car racing guys, we just rebuild them. Unlike the car guys, they are not that shinny.
Jim

Another tip came to mind:

Sometimes it's hard to get a plane moving, especially after the tires have formed a flat spot when it has been sitting overnight in cool or cold weather. If you lay the whip to it to get the plane moving you stand a good chance of picking up rocks and beating up your tail and prop. But if you pump the elevator and rudder while gently bringing up the power you can sometimes get the plane rolling at a much lower power setting.