i have a cessna 180. i always avoid landing with any tailwind component. i've been thinking it would be a good idea to practice landing & taking off with a small tailwind component & was wondering if any of the tailwheel pilots ever practice this.

i know it's safer to avoid the tailwind, but if i land on a one way strip into the wind & have to accept a tailwind on takeoff i would like to have some practice under my belt.

kelly
south lake tahoe

My 10c

First make sure you are happy doing hard braking, then practice on a nice long runway and carry near max weight cargo if you can.

The long runway lets you feel the difference and stop the take off if it feels puckerish.

Lots of factors to consider here.How much wind,how long a runway,how heavy are you,density altitude,how much power you have.
You may HAVE to land someday downwind but the take-off is always by choice.
If you have ever had the feeling of a plane sinking after take-off and no runway left in front it is an eye opener and not fun.

Bill

Directional control is a significant issue in downwind operations with a tailwheel airplane.

It is a good idea to practice this, but I'd start off on grass/gravel at first, unless you are REALLY proficient in the plane.

MTV

I always try to avoid a tailwind when possible,Sometmes it is not possible, if there is to much of it I will go land someplace else.If you must get down for some reason just keep the thing pointed in the right direction(like always)If you let it go even a little bit you could end up in the bushes.High elevation will also make you feel like you are going uncomfortably fast right before touchdown...... with a tailwind you most likely are.Also, watch the brakes, too much and you may end up on your back

Head over to Rosachi in Smith Valley and practice on the N/S dirt runway.
The airport owner Mike is a great guy.

Just head off to any towered airport, they seem to take pleasure in tailwind operations.

tahoeskywagon wrote:i have a cessna 180. i always avoid landing with any tailwind component. i've been thinking it would be a good idea to practice landing & taking off with a small tailwind component & was wondering if any of the tailwheel pilots ever practice this.

kelly
south lake tahoe

I've been flying taildraggers for 38 years, and I will do nearly ANYTHING to avoid a downwind landing of more that 5 kts, especially at altitudes well above sea level. I would consider landing my 180 with a 10 kt tailwind to be an emergency situation.

I know pilots who fly for a living have a different attitude, but for my purely pleasure flying, there just is not any reason to do this. Call me a wimp, I don't care. 5000 hours of experience has taught me that I'm not NEARLY as good as I thought I was.

Remember, the ground looping tendency goes up as the square of the groundspeed increase, so if you normally touch down at 45 kts, a 55 kt touchdown is 100 times more likely to produce a groundloop, not 10! Go up to a density altitude of 8000 feet on a hot day in the mountains with a 10 knot tailwind for a touchdown groundspeed of 70 kts and you are 625 times more likely to lose it!

This has not really been scientitifically proven, but it serves as a good rule of thumb. Many groundloop accidents involve a pilot used to landing at near sea level making a landing at high elevation and not paying enough attention to the wind. I learned and flew my first 2,500 hours at airports between 5,000 and 8,000 feet, and we just simply DID NOT EVER land downwind in a taildragger. Downhill, yes, but never downwind in more than a light breeze (below 5kts) and NEVER, NEVER, EVER downhill AND downwind. I was taught by a guy with 20,000 + hours in TD's and this was what he drilled into my brain from day one. Taildraggers have enough groundlooping risk as it is, why do anything to increase it unless it is unavoidable (read emergency). Don't let yourself get herded into that situation.

If you want to practice a LITTLE downwind, pick a low elevation grass airport on a stable day with less than 5 kts of wind, land into the wind a couple of times, note the distance, then try it downwind. It will be roughly twice the groundroll! On pavement, it is important to reduce that rolling speed ASAP without skidding the tires. Groundlooping below 30kts is far less likely, unless a bad gust hits you.

Regardless of winds or elevation, I always try to minimize the time spent above 30 kts in ground contact. And, yes, I do go through my brake pads a little faster than some, but I think it's a very good trade-off. If I was flying a Stearman, my attitude would be different, but my 180 brakes very smoothly and controllably, so why not use them?

Take-offs with a tailwind are pretty much of a non-event from a groundlooping standpoint, as you have all that propwash on the rudder, so usually when the tailwind is too strong from a controllability standpoint, it is way too strong for your climb-out performance. Don't forget the performance loss from climbing into a rapidly increasing tailwind component.The only time I really scared myself in the last ten years was exactly that scenario...less than 5 kts on the ground, but 25 kts at 150 feet! She just completely quit climbing, forcing me to dodge between some trees and dive into the river canyon for a couple of hundred yards to get some more airspeed. Luckily I had planned for exactly that scenario and knew exactly where the decision to jink and dive had to be made, or I wouldn't be posting this.

Regards,

Rocky

Ag pilots will often land with a tail wind to the loader truck so a simple 180 has them taking off into the wind when they are heavy. It's like anything else, un-nerving until you get used to it. Like flying over the mountains, or flying over water.

I have had Seldovia Alaska's AWOS reporting 'winds variable 5 knots gusting 21' or something similar multilple times. Landing downwind sometimes is just a fact of life. Practice spot landings, engine out and downwind, but as pointed out in previous posts mitigate your risks.

I was thinking the same thing, as SOV is my home base in the summer.

Kelly:

I land uphill with a tailwind much of the time in NV. In fact, I did a few @ Johnson Creek, ID last week. Doing it properly is one of the things that just needs to be done given certain conditions. If you want to fly sometime, let me know, but do it soon, as I'll be in AK later next month.

Manny

Sometimes ya got to....

Fly IFR or in shit weather on a regular basis and sometimes you're stuck with the approach that gets you in. If it means takin' 20+ up the ass, then you learn to deal with it, and the seat of your pants and your feet have to do some of that pilot stuff. That's why you get a paycheck to fly.

Now in my own airplane, flying for fun... Unless "I" want to be somewhere real bad, I'd stay on the ground or go elsewhere.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Sometimes ya got to....

Fly IFR or in shit weather on a regular basis and sometimes you're stuck with the approach that gets you in. If it means takin' 20+ up the ass, then you learn to deal with it, and the seat of your pants and your feet have to do some of that pilot stuff. That's why you get a paycheck to fly.

Now in my own airplane, flying for fun... Unless "I" want to be somewhere real bad, I'd stay on the ground or go elsewhere.

Gump

Sums up the reality very well.

I feel the same about practicing tailwind landings.....sooner or later you are going to be introcuced to this condition. When you can, practice tail winds and quartering tailwinds at different wind speeds and angles so when you NEED to land in this situation it is not unfamiliar.
My first landing at Garden Valley in August of 07 was about 3PM with about a 10 knot tailwind. Probably about the fastest 3 point landing I ever made!
Again if there is a condition that may present itself and you need some instruction...get a good instructor and practice, practice, practice.
During my BFR in October I was landing on grass with winds at 70-90 deg gusting at 27 knots on the grass and my CFI had me do several TO and LGD's...made me sweat a little but it was a confidence builder since the demonstrated crosswind component for the airplane is only 17 knots!
I can also relate to the crosswinds at 4, gusting to 24...you have to ready for any change with rudder, aileron, or brake to keep it out of the weeds!
I cannot say for other places, but flying in and out of airports on the high plains...gusty crosswinds are a way of life. [/b]