With the apparent disorenting of the pilot from Bountiful, UT I wonder how good we are. What would have happened to me. I will assume that I would have not made this flight in these conditions but you never know.

How rusty am I when there is no horizon?

Answer this poll honestly. It has been about a year and a half for me.

Tim

Its been 27 months. I and my Kitfox are strictly daytime VFR.

When I was a student pilot...about 25 years...ago, I attended a wings session put on by the Portland FSDO. He played a tape recording of radio transmission between a student pilot inadvertantly in IMC and ATC. You could tell by the pilot's words and voice that he was soon in a grave yard spiral. The whole tape lasted about 90 seconds with the last transmission from ATC being "TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF OF THE YOKE" No reply was heard. That made a lasting impression on me.

The hood is fine but there is little substitute for the real thing. The sensations just cannot be duplicated with a view limiting device. Get a good CFII and go do some if you have not done so in awhile. Many pilots out west get their IFR ticket without a single hour of actual. I never have quite understood that one.

Me, I'm a coward and stay away from that white stuff.

gb

VFR only BFR Apr 08

Single and Multi-Instrument with about 70 hours total instrument - 6 actual in 16,000 total.
Last time I was under the foggles was a year and a half ago during my helicopter training.
Last "real" hood time was a Caravan checkout in 1995 probably 13,000 hours ago.
I am NOT at all instrument current nor proficient and I don't bullshit myself to be.
No VFR on top ('cause if the engine quits you're in it!), no getting in clouds, no flying at night away from cities.
I will put out the occasional load of spray in the dark but I usually stay low enough to keep the dirt in the lights to see it through the whole flight. Plus it's done in country that I know VERY well. I also do stay night current at times but it's also done in the pattern or on close (under 30 miles) point to point flights with busy highways or towns visible the whole time.

Well, I consider myself a greenhorn (less than 150 hrs).
VFR only. Always plan to fly during the day in good weather.
NO VFR on top (unless I'm high enough and can see an emergancy landing spot/area).
I don't mind flying at night in certain area's, but definitely won't fly at night without my Garmin 396! There's no way in hell I would even think of flying at night from Caldwell to Utah, NV or anywhere at night with any chance of bad weather along or near my route!

I've always told myself, if I do ever get in trouble, contact ATC ASAP, confess and ask for help. And most importantly, TRUST YOUR GAUGES!!

Through out my training, I've always done really well under the hood/floggles. I think you need 1 hr of instrument flying for your PPL.

Up until 3 years ago all of my BFR's had some hood time...I have done more stall-spin recovery under the hood than I have not under the hood. One time I asked the instructor to set up the scenario without me under the hood...kinda scared me to watch what he did. This was all taught to get me to use the instruments and not trust my seat-of-the-pants judgement. The plane I fly now does not have an artifical horizon so I don't do this proceedure any more. Still keep current for night flying because you never know when I might need it. Also my night landings are mostly wheel landings whereas my daytime landings are mostly full stall.
HC

I'm about 3/4 thru my IFR traning. I have about 1 hour actual IMC. There is no comparison hood to actual. It is really cool to let down through the clouds and have the airport in sight.

I don't BS myself either. No hard IFR for me. I don't even want to fly in the clouds. I want to be on top and drop down to land with 1000' ceiling.

Rob

gbflyer wrote:The hood is fine but there is little substitute for the real thing. The sensations just cannot be duplicated with a view limiting device. Get a good CFII and go do some if you have not done so in awhile. Many pilots out west get their IFR ticket without a single hour of actual. I never have quite understood that one.

Me, I'm a coward and stay away from that white stuff.

gb

It's not hard to understand being that the MEAs are so high around a good part of the intermountain west. By the time you reach the MEAs around here on a day that IMC exists, you have most likely already entered icing conditions. If you aren't carrying O2, you are even further limited, assuming your ride will even go higher.

Now, if you were living in an area where icing isn't a concern, the MEAs are lower, and your aircraft has the performance to give you options in altitudes above the MEA, then that is a different story. One thing is for sure, actual is very different than hood work.

RobBurson wrote:....I don't BS myself either. No hard IFR for me. I don't even want to fly in the clouds. I want to be on top and drop down to land with 1000' ceiling. Rob

I'm not trying to start trouble but....after you get your ticket, do you plan to file & fly under an IFR flight plan? If so, what do you do when your clearance and/or other direction from ATC sends you into hard IFR? Tell them "I wanna fly VFR IFR"? Even if you go on a not-so-bad day, the chances are very real that it will turn ugly and/or they will send you where it is ugly. Now say you shoot an approach down to min's & it's still white outside.... then what??
I also have no interest in actually flying IFR, that's one of the reasona I've never pursued the ticket. Planning for "light IFR" kinda reminds me of the joke about being a little pregnant. If you're flying IFR, you'd better be ready able & willing to actually fly IFR- not VFR under an IFR plan.
No offense intended (so don't flame me please), I'm just curious as to the thinking here.

Eric

Oh, and to address the question posed, the last time under the hood for me has probably been either 6 years. Since I don't have an artificial horizon or DG, but I do have a T&B, I probably should get out there with a safety plot or CFI & get a little needle/ball/airspeed practice in. I've never actually tried it but I'm sure that it's much harder than when you can "cheat" with a horizon.

Eric

Grassstrippilot wrote:

gbflyer wrote:The hood is fine but there is little substitute for the real thing. The sensations just cannot be duplicated with a view limiting device. Get a good CFII and go do some if you have not done so in awhile. Many pilots out west get their IFR ticket without a single hour of actual. I never have quite understood that one.

Me, I'm a coward and stay away from that white stuff.

gb

It's not hard to understand being that the MEAs are so high around a good part of the intermountain west. By the time you reach the MEAs around here on a day that IMC exists, you have most likely already entered icing conditions. If you aren't carrying O2, you are even further limited, assuming your ride will even go higher.

Now, if you were living in an area where icing isn't a concern, the MEAs are lower, and your aircraft has the performance to give you options in altitudes above the MEA, then that is a different story. One thing is for sure, actual is very different than hood work.

Ya, I know. I grew up in W. CO and got my primary and commercial training there. Very few good IFR days for us underpowered single engine guys. I went back east for the IFR stuff. Plenty of actual and low elevations. My point being that the first time I was in the clouds for real, I had a fresh Instrument ticket and was scared shitlless. Good thing someone was there that knew what he was doing. I cannot imagine doing it alone for the first time, but like I said I'm a coward.

I practice on the gauges maybe an hour or two a year just for the fun of it. In my present state of instrument incompetence, I would not go into the clouds under any circumstance. I would take my chances on finding a suitable beach first, but most assuredly execute a timely 180 degree turn and go home. As far as night goes, that is for the big boys. Night and IFR are the same thing to me. Been doing it that way for 20 years, most of it in AK, still alive with very few flying stories under my belt....knock on wood.

Stay safe.

gb

I fly VFR, both day and night. I live in a relatively flat region with no shortage of cities and light sources for reference. With that said, I have encountered IFR conditions during VFR flight, and while i admit my blood pressure was higher than it usually is, the experience was not the terrible disaster that some describe. I had a Flight instructor and mentor that gave me the absolute best advice a pilot could get; FLY THE PLANE. once that becomes second nature, challenge yourself to get better. If you fly at night, even if you are a VFR pilot, you need to be prepared to quit looking out the windows. This can be exercised by VFR pilots on VFR days, even while just getting the 100$ burger. Take a friend (pilot) with you to safety, and fly and navigate under the hood. This does not have to include instrument procedures or approaches, but it will make you comprehend the subtleties of instrument reference flight from here to there. If you can still fly the plane, without having to learn on the job after encountering inadvertant IFR, then talking to control to find a safe way out will not be so much of a stress factor. I even fly the IFR procedure for my local airports (with safety, in VFR conditions) so the I know in my own mind that I can survive that situation. The goal of this is to try however you can to have been there, and experienced the situation before being forced into it.
Also, having EFIS doesn't hurt anything in these situations, because the visuals of horizon, speed, altidude, coordination, and even outside features are presented in a format that mimics looking outside, so I may be cheating a little.

KB

hotrod150 wrote:

RobBurson wrote:....I don't BS myself either. No hard IFR for me. I don't even want to fly in the clouds. I want to be on top and drop down to land with 1000' ceiling. Rob

I'm not trying to start trouble but....after you get your ticket, do you plan to file & fly under an IFR flight plan? If so, what do you do when your clearance and/or other direction from ATC sends you into hard IFR? Tell them "I wanna fly VFR IFR"? Even if you go on a not-so-bad day, the chances are very real that it will turn ugly and/or they will send you where it is ugly. Now say you shoot an approach down to min's & it's still white outside.... then what??
I also have no interest in actually flying IFR, that's one of the reasona I've never pursued the ticket. Planning for "light IFR" kinda reminds me of the joke about being a little pregnant. If you're flying IFR, you'd better be ready able & willing to actually fly IFR- not VFR under an IFR plan.
No offense intended (so don't flame me please), I'm just curious as to the thinking here.

Eric

I really wanted the ticket for added safety. Lower insurance is a plus too. My plane is set up pretty good so I didn't have to dump money into that. I don't plan to fly in hard IFR. If you plan right IMO getting trapped in hard IFR with no alternates should be rare.

If you leave on a decent day and it gets bad, stay on the ground. If you are in weather and you don't like it ask to divert. I have xm weather in the plane. I don't fly in moderate or worse rain.

I live in a river valley. Being able to take off and land with a solid over cast say 1000' will be great. We get a lot of days that the whole state is clear except in the Willamette valley, and you have the 1000' ceiling.

If I get down to minimums and it is white, I messed up. Pretty simple though, go to your alternate. Don't push the weather to the limit, you will lose!

Last winter we had a pilot die shooting an approach to PDX in minimums. 10 minutes away was CAVU. This is not some video game. You make a bad choice, you die.

Rob

Recently got my ticket, so I have a fresh perspective. For one, I am really glad I got quite a bit of actual time in. It really is different than "hood time". I think those who never get any actual during training will always have that question lingering. "Whats the real thing like"? Once you get over the initial spookiness of being in the soup and realize that white stuff wont rip your wings off, it can actually be quite surreal and even calming. I had a good instructor who would jump at the chance of giving me actual IMC time.

Most of us who file IFR in light singles usually don't fly in the soup for long periods of time, or get down to minimums on approaches a lot, but I think you really need to feel that if you had to, you could safely do it without needing to change undergarments upon landing. If you don't feel that way, maybe you should do something about it.

Personally I just hate the feeling of incompetence in flying. If there's something in the flying environment that makes my stomach get queasy,
I cant stand it and have to do something about it. I remember early on after my PPL I still feared crosswinds. Finaly I said "screw this" and went out on a blustery day and shot crosswind landings one after another until I mastered it and began to actually enjoy it (which I still do). I apply the same principle to IFR. I had a couple of incidents when VFR only where I penetrated IMC and realized I had no business being there and had better do something about it.

Did a little hood work last summer when doing a BFR. I have an instrument rating, but am out of currency (lets do a poll on that). Feel comfortable going through clouds when it is warm, but would not want to run the pattern in IMC today. The rating is good additional training and might even be a life saver, but it needs to be used hard in order to stay proficient. For the record, I also quit night flying, the odds of surviving a forced night landing just don't seem as good as when I was bolder. After you have a malfunction or two that reality starts to set in. Steve

Last year I was flying up the central valley of California with my wife and I opened an IFR plan over Bakersfield. 4 to 5 K ceiling so I asked for 6K. Was in hard stuff for about an hour.

Great training. After I was good and sweaty and I decided to save our mariage, I asked for a lower altitude and then just stayed on the plan for the radio practice and separation.

Then when just north of Sacramento the cielings started to lower so I just stayed in it and later shot ILS into Reading. Broke out at about 2000 AGL.

Very little turbulance and it was nice to know that I had a high cieling below me.

Would I have done the whole thing with few options? No way.

Oh and my daughter picked us up for the drive from Reading to Weed. The minimums for V23 north of Reading is an ice machine.

Tim