Very long story short.
My 185 is most likely going to have to sit for a couple of years until it can fly into the air again.
This has something to do about my grandpa and his wish for me to let him do the work on the airplane in regards to it once being his airplane and he wants to give us one last gift. Since its hella hot in our little Texan hanger and there is literally no hope of moving it to Minneapolis to do the work here, that means that it can only be worked on during the winter where the temps in the hanger are less than 100 degrees Fahrenheit. His health is another very large factory, so hopefully I don't have to explain what I mean by that.

On the topic of ownership, I am now looking for a suitable first aircraft. My ultimate end goal is to have an ATP license and fly for anyone who will sign my paycheck at the end of the month. I want to have the 1500 hours that are required to get that license by the time I turn 21, that gives me 3 years. I don't really care how I get there, but it needs to be done legally. Other factors like having a good cruise speed, fuel burn under 10gph, something big enough for me to fit in, and a decent useful weight are what I call an added luxury but I wouldn't mind it. An airplane that does all of that stuff and so much more in my mind is the Cessna Skywagon. They look absolutely cool, can get into and out of small strips and have the ability to get me my ATP.

Currently I am on the hunt for a 180 that is "affordable" by that I mean under 70 large. Browsing my second favorite site Trade a Plane I find this relatively new listing. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=CESSNA&model=180&listing_id=2192039&s-type=aircraft









I am currently working out the best way to register it, either held by me or by an LLC and the finances needed to get it. I might be the owner of another Skywagon in a month or two.


What do my friends here at Backcountry pilot think about this specific airplane? I know it is a lot, especially for a first airplane but I want to hear everything you guys have to say. All I ask is that you play nice with your replies!

IMHO I think your jumping the gun a little bit. A 180/185 is not the right airplane for a low time pilot nor is it good for time building. Aviation is all about progression, and you have to crawl before you can walk. If your budget is 70K then I highly recommend a Super Cub, there easy to fly, economical to maintain, and VERY forgiving.

I agree with the above post.

I do think buying the right airplane to get your flying time in to get your commercial is a wise idea.
It certainly will be much less expensive than going to a flight school.

First off the 180 does burn considerable more than 10GPH so by your definition of requirements does not fit.
I don't know how much time or experience you have but building over 1,000 hours in your own airplane is going to be expensive.
There are many jobs out there that will allow you to build time and get a somewhat decent wage.
At my small airport here we have a banner tow operation. It pays fairly well and includes a room on the airport.
You get plenty of flying over the beeches fairly low in nice supercubes or PA-12s.
Once you get your commercial then you can find a job and really start building time.

Keep in mind that most all of the airline jobs do require a 4 year college degree.

If you're wanting to build to ATP (did you take the written before the reg change took effect a few years ago?), have you considered a 172/182?

I bet you could find one at a good value price with a legit IFR panel. I can't remember what your current rating is, but you'll need an IR to get your ATP. If you're buying a plane to fly now and work on ratings while your 185 is in maintenance, I'd personally focus only on the "need to haves" since your "want to have" is already in possession and delivery is relatively soon (in the larger picture, anyway).

If you want to fly for a living and need to build time right now then get an IFR equipped 172. Cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and insure. You can get a lot of hood time practice in it as well as get the instrument rating in it. Leave the Skywagon dream on hold for now and work on the objective for now. 1,500 hours in 3 years is a lofty goal, it is possible but will take a lot, much easier to accomplish in a 172 than a 180/185 if cost is an issue. Patience Grasshopper, the 180/185 will come soon enough, for now concentrate on the objective, the ATP and be smart about it.

Kurt
(been there done that)

I say buy your self a $20k Cessna 120/140. Then use the rest of that $70k on avgas to build hours. It will be a lot cheaper to fly more hours per year when you're burning 5gph instead of 13gph in the 180.

Buy a 170A or B, put a Garmin G5 and 430W in it and you are good to go. Bought my first when I had 12 hours total time, on my fourth now. I have had 180s and a 185 and have a 180H project in my garage but every time I need something to fly between airplanes I buy a 170. The A is actually better for learning as it requires more use of trim. The initial experience i got in the 170B served me well through out my career all the way to DC8-73 captain. i know this will seem hard to believe but flying 500 hours a year without someone paying you to be there requires a lot of dedication, that's an hour and a half every day, day in and day out.

a3holerman is right on the money on the need for a four year degree, I have friends who are excellent pilots block in their careers because they only have a two year degree. The "easy" ATP ended July 31.

Just my 2 cents worth, Tim

Do a good pre buy and live the dream! 180/185 is not that hard to fly. Heck 10-20 hours in it and it's yours. I would agree with the above posts if all your doing is trying to build time however, not knowing your $ situation and if you don't mind burning gas go for it! I learned to fly in a Helio but that's what we had. My first owned aircraft was a 182 because it came available at a very good price. Get the 180 and go live the dream. There might not be a tomorrow!

AKT

If that C-180 was equipped for instrument flight, my answer might be different. But it is strictly a VFR airplane, with no GPS, NAV, or even ADF. To get your Instrument and ATP, you're going to need something with IFR capability. To build serious time, you're probably going to want something with IFR capability (many flyable IFR days would be non-flyable VFR days). It is FAR less expensive to buy an airplane that someone else upgraded than to buy one and upgrade it yourself. Avionics upgrades return well under 50% of their value when the airplane is sold...

The other big issue with the C-180 would be the typical cruise fuel burn. Though I'm sure that airplane CAN cruise at a 10 GPH fuel flow, 99% of pilots just cannot bring themselves to do that. We're all speed junkies at heart, even those of us who fly O-200 powered Citabria 7ECAs with a max cruise of around 115 (nominal, with wheel pants - never seen anything CLOSE to that, but not for lack of trying!).

Building 1500 hours in your own plane, where you're paying for the gas, is a tough way to go. Get a plane that will allow you to earn your Commercial / Instrument ratings (other than maybe the few hours in Complex / High Performance rental), earn your CFI rating, and then find a job where you get paid (however poorly) for flying. Let someone else pay the hourly costs for the vast majority of those 1500 hours, so you can avoid "flying behind the debt curve"... It's amazing how cheaply you can live, IF you don't have loan payments taking half (or more) of your earnings!

Good luck!

Your initial job goals: "I am now looking for a suitable first aircraft. My ultimate end goal is to have an ATP license and fly for anyone who will sign my paycheck at the end of the month. I want to have the 1500 hours that are required to get that license by the time I turn 21, that gives me 3 years. I don't really care how I get there, but it needs to be done legally." are a little fuzzy. "Anyone who will sign my paycheck at the end of the month" could be most anything. A lot of room for interpretation there....like how big a paycheck do you want? Where do you want to spend your career? Etc.

First thing I'd do is try to refine that objective a bit. As others have noted, if an airline career is where you're headed, a four year college degree is going to be in your future. In fact, many aviation career paths will benefit from a college education, whether required or not. And, many aviation careers don't REQUIRE an ATP.....agricultural aviation being an example, and there are many others. So, give some serious consideration to more precisely where you want to go with your career.

As a previous post noted, the "easy" ATP ended a while back. But, in any case, for most any commercial flying career, you're going to need an instrument rating, and many of these jobs will require significant actual IFR logged. An older 180 such as you posted the pics of MAY get you there, but I agree with others who suggest a good, very well equipped (full IFR certified, not just "equipped") 172 as your first airplane.

The 172 is not only a great trainer, it's a very good basic IFR platform and is quite capable of basic IFR, and a great time builder. Finally, that 172 will probably sell for a decent price when that 185 is ready to go.

Fifteen hundred hours on YOUR nickel in three years is going to require a very good paying job AND lots of free time. Or a pretty big inheritance. Even if you've got the bucks, that 180 is going to suck up $$$ in both gas and maintenance, while a good solid late model 172 would be out flying, building time and experience. There are going to be a fair number of days when weather might suggest staying on the ground in the 180, while the 172 would be a good bet. Wind will not be your friend in the 180, at least till you get a few hundred hours in it.

So, in short, I'd recalibrate and refine your career goals first. What is it you REALLY want to do in aviation, long term? That'll tell you if you really need an ATP, and whether a college education is going to be a prerequisite. College educations are VERY expensive, by the way, and they too occupy a lot of your time.

I think you're dreaming big here and that's fine. Just make sure that you're actually preparing yourself for where you want to be in 20 years.

MTV

Read, re read and then re read again what MTV said above. Remember, that Grandpa's 185 will be there soon enough, concentrate on the other stuff for now.

Unless your weekly allowance has comas in it, a 180 is NOT an affordable airplane to build hours in. It's also just sad to think about abusing that big-ol engine doing private pilot maneuvers...there's no reason for it.

If fuel burn is a concern at all then you're shopping an order of magnitude above your budget. Don't confuse LOP high-altitude cruise fuel burn for normal fuel burn. Even in a 172 you won't see 10 gph while practicing maneuvers or flying approaches.

Insurance in a 180 vs a 172? That alone should seal the deal if the aforementioned comas don't exist.

Most other points have already been made, but this one hasn't: Just because you think you're going to fly for a living doesn't mean the world is going to allow it. Aviation is a very brittle basked to stack your eggs in.

Every pilot is one unforeseen medical condition away from loosing their ticket, and it doesn't take much. At your age health problems aren't what you think about, but you are in no way shape or form immune to the thousands of different ailments that will ground you, maybe for a year, maybe forever. Putting money into aviation vs college is a fools bet. By all means do both if you can, but make college your number-one priority if you want to stay ignorant of what food stamps look like.

Nobody ever got up in the morning thinking they were going to get a DUI, but thousands of people do just that every day. I don't know anybody who hasn't been a candidate for a DUI at some point in their life. Remember it doesn't have to be booze...over the counter cold remedies are enough to get you there. Open container, DUI, underage in possession...any of those will take your ticket, and NOBODY thinks it's going to happen to them.

I know four people working low paying, crap jobs and living mostly unrewarding and uncomfortable lives because they have debts from flight training, no other marketable skill, and no chance whatsoever of working in aviation. Two from health issues, one from a DUI, and one who simply ran out of money without enough of the right type of flight time to get hired into a job that he could live on.

It's not an enviable position to be in, and none of them saw it coming. A career in flying is always risky...going into it without something to fall back on is just foolish.

Agreed with all of the above comments. If I was wanting to fly that much I'd buy a Citabria or a 172. I love my 180, but I built twice as many hrs when I had my Citabria, simply for the fact that it took almost twice as long to get places.

+1 (Kinda) on what the guys said above.

What exactly are you looking at career wise besides someone who can cut a check for you at the end of the month? An airline career or corporate flying track is going to look, and focus, way differently than an Ag, Air Taxi, commercial float outfit, etc.

I built my hours by owning and flying my own airplanes. Lots. I was never a CFI, nor did I do any for hire timebuilding flying before I built the hours for my first flying job. But even being single and making pretty good money at the time, those were expensive hours in terms of money and relationships. It's actually hard to fly 500 hours a year in your own airplane. Do it in a C180/185 nowdays and you're looking at about $30,000 in just fuel alone. And I guarantee you, a C180 is going to need some TLC during each of those 500 hour periods. A simple annual will not cut it for maintenance interval. Figure a C120/140 will be about half that in fuel costs.

But, not to dissuade you. There's plenty of airline guys on here who can offer straight up solid advice on what kind of training, education, and experience to focus on. Conversely, there's a boatload of us old AK and Ag guys who love flapping our jaws about how we ended up in the weird places we found ourselves, and what kind of pilots the operators are looking for.

As long as you plan on boring 1,500 hours worth of holes in the sky over the next three years, you might as well make each one of those hours count. Not only for your future, but because just boring holes is monotonous as hell and gets old real quick.

Gump

One added point: If you are indeed looking for a career in flying, consider going to one of the flight training outfits that offer private, instrument, commercial and flight instructor training. Go through that in THEIR airplanes (remember, you're wearing out THEIR airplanes, and they're paying for the maintenance), then hire on with one of those outfits in Florida, Arizona or Southern California as a flight instructor. Now, you'll be flying more than 500 hours a year, and getting paid for it, to boot. And, getting experience....valuable experience. Remember, virtually all flight instruction given by a CFI is logged by the CFI as PIC. It all counts.

In the meantime, if you have the $$ to pull it off, buy a 172 or ?? and fly that when you're not flying for the school (good luck with that).

At some point, that 185 will be ready, and so will you.

But, first figure out what you want to do with your future.....

MTV

You're not actually planning on but building hours all the way to 1500 are you? Why not let others pay for those 1250hrs, as well as get a little change in your pocket and actually working pilot experience

It's normally hit 250, get job one, 1000, job two, job three hit ATP mins and get your ATP, especially seeing how you'll have to take all that CTP sim stuff and have 50ME hours now too.

pilotryan wrote:Very long story short.
My 185 is most likely going to have to sit for a couple of years until it can fly into the air again.
This has something to do about my grandpa and his wish for me to let him do the work on the airplane in regards to it once being his airplane and he wants to give us one last gift. Since its hella hot in our little Texan hanger and there is literally no hope of moving it to Minneapolis to do the work here, that means that it can only be worked on during the winter where the temps in the hanger are less than 100 degrees Fahrenheit. His health is another very large factory, so hopefully I don't have to explain what I mean by that.

On the topic of ownership, I am now looking for a suitable first aircraft. My ultimate end goal is to have an ATP license and fly for anyone who will sign my paycheck at the end of the month. I want to have the 1500 hours that are required to get that license by the time I turn 21, that gives me 3 years. I don't really care how I get there, but it needs to be done legally. Other factors like having a good cruise speed, fuel burn under 10gph, something big enough for me to fit in, and a decent useful weight are what I call an added luxury but I wouldn't mind it. An airplane that does all of that stuff and so much more in my mind is the Cessna Skywagon. They look absolutely cool, can get into and out of small strips and have the ability to get me my ATP.

Currently I am on the hunt for a 180 that is "affordable" by that I mean under 70 large. Browsing my second favorite site Trade a Plane I find this relatively new listing. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=CESSNA&model=180&listing_id=2192039&s-type=aircraft









I am currently working out the best way to register it, either held by me or by an LLC and the finances needed to get it. I might be the owner of another Skywagon in a month or two.


What do my friends here at Backcountry pilot think about this specific airplane? I know it is a lot, especially for a first airplane but I want to hear everything you guys have to say. All I ask is that you play nice with your replies!

It does seem like a sweet little airplane, and a good price. Would be nice to have a /G panel though.

I'd like to preface this comment by saying I don't have near the experience of these other guys, only have 110 hours total, have rented 172's for all of it, and I'm about to take my IFR check ride. I've been watching the C180 market for about 8 months now, because we all know they are amazing.

- For a low time pilot like you and I, insurance on a 180 is more than double what insurance is on a 170 or 182. A 172 is even lower. I've got a pretty in depth ownership cost spreadsheet that I'm willing to send to you if you want that can calculate almost all costs of different models.

- You get A LOT more airplane for the price in a 182 vs the same spent on a 180. That meaning, for the same price, you could get a 182 with good IFR avionics, low time, and a nice comfortable interior and modifications. Given, it doesn't have the sexiness of a 180. Realizing this (thanks BCP) was a hard realization, but one that has to be come to terms with regardless of your decision.

I'm not going to comment on your plans over the next few years because that's in flux for me as well. I am currently 25 and have a very well paying aerospace engineering job. Even with that and being single and lowering expense living with roommates, I barely break even when I'm getting flight training at a rate of 20 hours/month. Thank god for simulators. MY current plan is to finish IFR, get my tailwheel endorsement, buy my first plane (would love a 180 but realistically its looking more like a 182), and then use my engineering job to pay my way to commercial over the next year or two. After that, who knows.

Good luck with whatever direction you go. Flying is great. Having a job to pay for it - even better.

A180 isn't exactly the most practical time builder out there, but if it makes you happy buy it, and fly the hell out of it.
Run it at 18" 2000 RPM and 7.5 GPH and its not all too expensive.

Sorry for the somewhat late reply, just got back from the airport. Another successful flight in the lil 172S.

Lets take a step back and clarify a few things that I missed when I posted the original post.
1. I am currently in a two year college program, and will be transferring to the University of Minnesota to get a bachelors in computer sciences once I finish up my two year technical college. The savings from doing it this way instead of going to UND or Embry alone are the fuel costs for at-least two years or the price of the airplane. I probably should have mentioned that before hand, my mistake.

2. I plan on getting my ATP license, but I do not plan on every single one of those 1500 hours being in the 180 or my 185. I will use one of those airplanes towards getting my IR and CPL and then for fun and visiting relatives and stuff like that. The nice thing about my flight school that I went to, is that their CFI's are offered an extra job flying the companies King Air's around on charter flights. I do plan on staying in Minnesota until I am done with College, after that its over to my little ranch / strip in Texas. It is much cheaper than staying here!

Let me also redefine my mission for an aircraft. There are a few things that I am looking for in any airplane. Those things are
1. Can I fit in the thing and last for at-least four hours at a time? I am at-least 6'7 and barely fit into a 172 much less a cub.
2. Will it cruise in the 130 zone and burn less than 10 per hour at altitude?
3. Can I bring my mom, grandma,grandpa and the dog comfortably? Grandpa is 6'9!
4. Does it have endurance? The ranch is about 980 nautical miles away and I would want to stop maybe once or twice to fill up and take a piss break.
5. Can it land at the ranch with good safety margins on those hot Texas days?
6. Will it impress the ladies? I do have to admit that this is more of an added luxury, but the more the better!

That [i]should[/i ]clear a few things up.
I don't have time to reply to every one individually this evening, as I try my best to do, but do know that I read everything and appreciate the feedback even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I have looked at all aircraft types and think that a 180 will best suit my goals, and will help with the transition into my 185 when it flies again. It will see a couple of upgrades done like the Garmin G5 and 430.

Do note that I wont be sitting in the traffic pattern all day long doing full stop taxi backs, that just eats up $$$ because these big bore continentals like to drink (a lot). Most of my flights will probably be above 10k feet flying from Minneapolis to Texas, or some state that I know people in that haven't seen me in a while.