Been thinking of moving back to a 4 seat airplane from my Scout so I can have an autopilot for longer trips and it would be nice to be able to take more than 1 other person along with a bunch of stuff. Had a couple Katmai 182s in the past, but thinking a 185 would be the best of both worlds (4 seats and still taildragger). I've been shopping and I'm thinking I want a 1979 or newer (no bladders) and I want a nice, straight low time one. There is one listed for sale currently for $247k on trade a plane. Vref is around160k. What is it really worth? I'm assuming a bank won't borrow over Vref, so why would I pay more? Trying to understand the market. Maybe it is what it is?! My plan would be to fix it up including avionics, paint, interior, IO550, etc. I'm not trying to steal this plane or any other one, but want to pay a fair price. I still can't believe they want $250k for a plane that needs a total overhaul!

Would also like to understand what else I should be looking for. Thanks in Advance.

I think you need to share that ad link so we can see this 185 that needs an overhaul for 247K

I saw the one you're talking about plus another NDH and less than a 1000 hrs total time. Original engine so you just know you'll have to do the engine. I guess the thought is how many NDH low time airframes are out there anymore.

For a 185 priced at $247k, it better be perfect in every way, with the best of the best mods, zero timed engine/prop, new paint and interior, etc, with tight floats, wheel gear and skis. Even then, its high.

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't put too much emphasis on NDH. I've seen and flown many that had been near write-off's at some point in their life, and after being rebuilt/repaired by a skilled engineer, they are like new. I was fortunate to find my 180 that had both low time and NDH, but it wouldn't have stopped me from buying it had it been scratched once.

The mods I find the most useful on a 185 would be the firewall battery, flat floor extended baggage, WingX with the upgross on EDO 3430 floats. Haven't flown the latest and greatest new props yet, but long 3 blade Black Mac's sure worked well.

Good luck on your search. Hard to beat a straight 185.

Don’t look for logic on “low time” older airplanes. Some of these folks think they have a real gem, while in fact they’ve just got an older plane that may in fact be VERY expensive to get operational. We’re not talking about 62 Porsche’s here.

I agree with upnorth.....don’t shy away from a plane that’s been repaired, just make sure the repairs were done right.

I know a fellow who spent a more than the price that guys asking to have a 185 completely refurbished.....as in new skins, etc. that plane is near perfect, but it still wouldn’t sell for the money he has in it. And, he doesn’t care.

Look for a good one, used, damaged and repaired or?

Great airplanes, no doubt.

MTV

Agree that a low time airframe is of little value in the big picture. What I found with 180/185 shopping is getting screwed on price is a given...how long and how hard are the only things you have even marginal control over.

They're sort of like Leica cameras...great machines priced completely out of proportion to everything else on the market. If you've got to have one that's fine, but there's no logic in what you spend for what you get.

Personally I wouldn't want one with wet wings. The sealant in the tanks is at least 35 years old. When I frequented the Cessna Pilot Association forum there were many discussions on the difficulty in finding someone able to do quality repairs to leaking wet wings, and when they did find someone who could fix the problem (usually multiple tries to fix the problem) the cost was several thousand dollars, as in approaching ten thousand dollars. So even though we think of wet wings be a permeate solution to fuel leaks they are not and the more cost effective solution is to replace a bladder tank which is about one thousand dollars for the parts and one thousand dollars for the labor.

As for low time airframes, the hoses, wiring insulation, paint and fabric are still 40 years old and will cause on going little picky problems which will require you to be working on the airplane all the time instead of enjoying flying it.

Tim

Here are my thoughts based on my very recent experience.

The only airplanes I ruled out because of accident history or damage were those that had been submerged (salt water or fresh water). Parts can be fixed and replaced, but corrosion lurks in those tiny, inaccessible spots (lap joints, rivet lines, etc.) and it doesn't come out to say hello for many years down the road, is often wide-spread and very costly to address. Not to mention the electrical connectors and components that may not have been replaced...

Bladders

Bladder tanks aren't the end of the world and new Eagle fuel bladders for a 185 cost about $1000 a piece and figure about $1500-2000 in labor to install them. They should last for a good long while (the 1973 originals lasted until this year).

Compare that with the labor involved to drain tanks, open up the wet bay and spread some gookumpuckey in there on a big long stick, let it cure and then fill the tank up with fuel only to find out you puckied up the wrong hole...

Log Books

I was looking for an airplane that had complete log books. Complete log books provide a historical trace of the total time put on the airframe (and engine/prop) when the time comes to part with your vicious beast of an airplane. A five year gap in the logs opens up a potential buyers imagination as to what the airplane was doing for that 5 year period that no-one can account for.

Are there good airplanes out there with holes in its history? Absolutely. You are going to have to be convinced and comfortable with that lack of trace-ability. Even if you are, you're going to have to convince a future buyer that he can be comfortable with that lack of trace-abiltiy as well. Can the right price tag make up for lost log books? Yep, both now and in the future.

Buy the right airframe.

If you need the proverbial $*!@-ton of useful load, make sure you pick the right airframe. They aren't all the same and while there are gross weight kits out there, I'm just enough of an engineer to question the load paths of every band-aide applied to a structure. Get the right airframe for the job, you'll sleep better at night next year when you're wife wants to bring the kitchen sink for your next glamping trip.

That goes for the engine too. Everyone cusses the fuel bill, but you've never heard anyone say "I wish I would've bought the smaller engine...".

Everything else.

Know what tools you need for your mission. Going IFR? You'll need to be equipped. Weigh upgrading an instrument panel vs. buying one already outfitted.

Knowing what things cost will make your decision much easier. The numbers don't lie unless your emotion lies about the numbers.

Look at 100 airplane listings and compare them against each other before making a commitment to go look at one. You'll have a better command of what things are worth vs. what people are asking for them. Note which airplanes are selling and which ones are still for sale.

Is there someone out there capable of paying $247,000 for a 50 year old airplane? Yes there is. But they may not be a pilot.

My 2 cents. I watch the Skywagon market to see whats out there and the going prices. You will often see several broker listed so called "low time original" 185s for sale with ridiculous high prices. Quite often with old heavy boat anchor amphibs. Those prices are not reality and are pie in the sky. Real world market today is $120k-$180k. At the low end is a VFR only basic airframe with no frills and sorta on the rough side cosmetically. On the high side is usually fairly nice cosmetics, mid time motor, some mods and maybe an IFR GPS. Most people who fly out in the bush want a 12 volt electrical system. Much easier to jump start a dead battery from an auto. Hand propping a high compression 3 blade sucks. Also as previously commented, leaking wet wings are a pain. Bladders are the way to go. The later the airfame, the more improvements were incorporated up until the mid 70's. Heavier doublers and skin thickness that make the airframe more durable and resistant to cracking. Earlier airframes that were lighter show the wear and tear. Along the years systems were improved. A look at applicable ADs for the different serial number series reflects this. Most well maintained Wagons usually have a fair amount of STCs and have been updated to make them more functional and durable. Nothing wrong with an earlier airframe -IF- it has been updated and maintained. I personally would take a higher time well maintained and modded airframe over a low time original hanger queen. The all original airframes have a lot of old funky junky 1970's electrical stuff and heavy interiors.
The market has firmed up abit the last year or so for US registered airframes. Still some good deals to be had in Canada. Most came from the US, so have a US history. Reimportation is really not a big deal. Pretty much a thorough annual with some additional paperwork. Buy the best airframe you can afford. Maybe stretch abit far. You can sink a ton of $$$ in updates and mods that you will have a hard time recovering. It becomes a sickness adding mods. My wife says its "aviation opioid addiction". Buy one already modded out.
Disclaimer- I own a heavily modified and updated '77 IO-550 185, so I may be biased.

Buying a 185 seems like the cool thing to do lately. I bought mine in July and I know of one other purchase in addition to the two threads here.

I probably looked at 30 online and saw several in person before buying mine. The one I bought wasn't listed - I put out feelers like you are and was contacted by the seller. It was the first one I looked at in person that was pretty much as-represented.

I had a '54 180 for several years and spent lots of time in and around it doing mx and installing various mods, so was already familiar with the basic airframe. Having said that, the 185 is more different than I expected. Not hugely so, but they're different enough that it'd be nice to have someone familiar with 185s specifically to do the prebuy. I'm an A&P (though not by profession) and my local guru was way too busy to come with me for the prebuy, so I did it myself and sent lots of pictures and made lots of calls when I had questions. I spent the better part of two days on the inspection and still missed a few things. The seller was fantastic about letting me take things apart, so I don't have any excuse other than ignorance. Nothing major, but someone familiar would have caught them immediately (like they did during the subsequent annual). In my case, the electric fuel pump hadn't been overhauled for 22 years - it's supposed to be every 10. Once the new one was installed, it was clear that the old one was on its last legs. I also dodged a bullet because the gear was missing a couple of shims. Fortunately no damage as a result and the gear boxes are good. I've also spent a good 50 hours or so doing various nitpicky jobs. Cleaning up under the floors (fun), re-pinning a couple of connectors, cleaning up wiring, doing the SID 97-3 fuel injection setup, etc. Nothing that really HAD to be done, but stuff that my OCD side is happy with (actually I'm really glad I did the fuel injection setup, it was too lean at full power).

Mine has a history, as they all seem to. Both wings have been repaired over the years, a couple of prop strike inspections, and it was submerged in fresh water early in its life. Normally that would have been a deal breaker for me, but it was 33 years ago and any problems would likely have shown up by now.

On the plus side, it has fairly low time (~3500 hrs), complete logs, a new-ish prop, recent jackscrews, semi-recent bladders, good paint/interior, several STCs that I wanted and a great panel. It's well-rigged, flies hands off and is a joy to fly. It wasn't cheap, but I'd pretty much decided what Hammer said above - when an acceptable airplane came up, I'd grab it if the price was in the ballpark. Tough to get a deal on 185s unless you find one in an estate sale or know the seller already.

Now that I've put some time on the airplane, I can say without question that it's everything I wanted and way more. It's a blast to fly, very efficient (with GAMIs it's consistently 10.5gal/hr at 9500' and 130kts), is WAY easier to work on with the newer cowl (Camlocks are awesome), etc.

I know I don't need to sell you on the airplane, but in August I took the family to watch the eclipse in Idaho. Full fuel, the four of us and baggage literally to the ceiling in back and we were still more than 200lbs under gross. I'm absolutely blown away by what this thing can carry. When I was working up a bunch of weight and balance scenarios, just for grins I did one with full fuel, four 200 pounders and 150 lbs of bags.

Unbelievably, it's legal.

Shhh, don’t tell anyone but I’ve added a 185 into my hunt for a Helio. [emoji51]


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Is it just me or is anyone else realizing that round dials are rapidly becoming obsolete?

When I see a plane for sale with a thirty year old panel, the first thing that I think of is the cost to modernize it. And I invariably come to the conclusion that they need to knock about twenty grand off the price of their plane. Of course no seller thinks that way.

I know...... vacuum pumps, venturi tubes, and six-packs of instruments are all still being used and they work, but if they aren't obsolete now they soon will be. Most new students aren't being taught how to use them.

I am somewhat well-versed on 180's, but not too up on the specifics of the various models of 185's.
Personally I like the earlier 180's, I prefer the lighter & simpler aspect vs the added features (and heavier weight) of the later ones.
I think I'd probably feel the same about 185's if I was in the market to buy one.
FWIW here's a link to a webpage which details the year-by-year model changes for both the 180 & 185.

http://skywagons.com/content/cessna-sky ... ar-changes

I'm highly committed to my 185 ($$$$$$) and it would take a wheelbarrow load of cash to separate me from it, because I like it that much. Bought it with 1540 TTSN engine and airframe. It needed lots of work, but it's straight and unmolested. Submerged once at 60 TTSN, sank at the dock. Leading edges damaged and replaced at the time. It's a cream puff, and with time and dollars it will be pretty again some day.

All that said, I wish airplane's depreciated faster. If they traded at a lower price it would be better for everyone. If I hadn't paid so much for it, and sunk so much into it, I'd gladly sell it cheap. The sum of its parts is actually worth more than the airworthy airplane. It's bad for aviation. The price of admission is too high all around. Prices were low in the 90s, but then new production resumed at Cessna and the asking prices shocked the market. Consider the price of a T206 on amphibs new! Makes the vintage fleet a bargain.

joejenie wrote:Been thinking of moving back to a 4 seat airplane from my Scout so I can have an autopilot for longer trips and it would be nice to be able to take more than 1 other person along with a bunch of stuff. Had a couple Katmai 182s in the past, but thinking a 185 would be the best of both worlds (4 seats and still taildragger). I've been shopping and I'm thinking I want a 1979 or newer (no bladders) and I want a nice, straight low time one.

I've always heard not to buy a 180 and try to mod it into a 185, but a late model 180 might also fill the bill if you don't find a 185 you like. I have a 1980 180K... useful load is almost 1400 lbs after I did the 3190 gross weight mod and I have wet wings with 84 gal useable fuel.

Performance with my O-470U is not what you'd see in a 185, but might be enough. And there are plenty of upgrade options.