Hello,

I've been a lurker here for quite a while, first post so go easy on me.

So I'm a fairly new pilot I have just shy of 700 hours a little over half of those in a 150hp Super Cub. I recently started flying a 1954 C180, the first few times I flew it I felt basically at home but I never had more than maybe 15 degrees of cross wind. The other evening I go out and the wind isn't strong maybe like 8 with a guest to 14 at not even 90 degrees more like 50, and I struggled keeping it straight more than I'd like. My thought is that I'm expecting it to react fast the way the lighter cub does and I'm being over aggressive but I'd like to hear from some guys with experience. Also compared to the super cub it really seems like it should have more rudder than it does, is that a thing? Or am I just not use to it?

I think you will find X-wind landings in the C180 challenging at first and with time less stressful. Most of my TW time prior to the 180 was in C170s, and 8KCABs. Gusty winds always make for harder X-wind landings in any plane. I think you are just used to the lighter feel of the Supercub causing your difficulties maintaining direction control. I am curious if you were landing 3 point or wheel. When I first started flying my 180 I felt more comfortable doing 3 points in X-winds. Now, I almost exclusively do wheel landings in all windy conditions just because I feel I have more directional control of the aircraft. I use a higher approach speed especially when it's gusty - 70 mph. I was taught to use less flaps - 20-30 degrees but I use 40 now and have never felt I was going to run out of rudder or have had difficulty maintaining longitudinal control with this setting. I have the tail loaded with 50 lbs of survival gear to relieve weight off the nose. I think it does create a stronger force and momentum in the tail and I worried it would make X-wind landings harder but I haven't noticed a difference. I have 950 hours on my 180 and the pucker factor is always present when it's windy but I am much more comfortable with them now. I think you just need to practice and get used to how the plane responds.

Not sitting on the centerline is weird too when most of your time is in a Cub. I never had much luck flying a faster than normal approach with X-wind. The extra energy was nice but it always translates into more work keeping it going straight once on the ground. Pretty lucky where I live as there’s 2 runways. Can go practice x-wind but can always bail and use the right one when necessary.

Keep going up. Hard to find a good C180 hand but if you can it’s well worth it. Find a crop duster if you can, don’t worry about the CFI ticket if there isn’t one either. Those guys are the best at seat of the pants which is the name of the game in your situation. Also if you can find some dirt or grass to practice on that’s a real bonus.

Good luck and welcome.

Thanks, I really enjoy practicing so I'll keep at it and get the feel for it. The ones that made me uncomfortable were 3-point after that I tried a couple wheel landings and they were better.

The airplane is kept on a grass strip that my uncle sprays off of so that shouldn't be a problem I like the learning and will definitely go up with him if I can catch him not busy.

Thanks a lot for the input.

PA-Bentprop wrote:Thanks, I really enjoy practicing so I'll keep at it and get the feel for it. The ones that made me uncomfortable were 3-point after that I tried a couple wheel landings and they were better.

The airplane is kept on a grass strip that my uncle sprays off of so that shouldn't be a problem I like the learning and will definitely go up with him if I can catch him not busy.

Thanks a lot for the input.

You’re well on your way to taming that beast! Just don’t get too comfortable, I saw a real high time 180 guy bend a beauty with a 5 knot quartering tailwind. A real pity.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Coming from the SuperCub you're used to lighter, more flicky handling. With the 180, you need to show the plane who's boss more, especially when you're in a gusty crosswind. You'll get the hang of it. Just takes practice.

I’ve got similar feelings, I don’t think the 180 has enough rudder - should add I only have about 40 hours in mine. I came home from Texas and had a 15kt direct crosswind and flew the entire final with the rudder pedal bottomed out and it still wouldn’t track straight down the runway. Bigger airports not a huge deal but where I’m at it’s only 25’ wide and paved.

TxAgfisher wrote:I’ve got similar feelings, I don’t think the 180 has enough rudder - should add I only have about 40 hours in mine. I came home from Texas and had a 15kt direct crosswind and flew the entire final with the rudder pedal bottomed out and it still wouldn’t track straight down the runway. Bigger airports not a huge deal but where I’m at it’s only 25’ wide and paved.

Lift a wing.

Yes, should have plenty of rudder on a 180. As someone noted earlier, you need to make these airplanes do what you want them to do. They can have a mind of their own.

MTV

mtv wrote:Yes, should have plenty of rudder on a 180. As someone noted earlier, you need to make these airplanes do what you want them to do. They can have a mind of their own.

MTV

I flew it some more this weekend feeling a lot better after some practice. Thinking another part of my issue was how the spring gear feels compared to the bungees.

With the 180, you need to show the plane who's boss more, especially when you're in a gusty crosswind. You'll get the hang of it. Just takes practice.

That’s about the most accurate true statement that can be made concerning flying a Skywagon. Keep practicing and you will gain confidence and who is BOSS!

akaviator wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:I’ve got similar feelings, I don’t think the 180 has enough rudder - should add I only have about 40 hours in mine. I came home from Texas and had a 15kt direct crosswind and flew the entire final with the rudder pedal bottomed out and it still wouldn’t track straight down the runway. Bigger airports not a huge deal but where I’m at it’s only 25’ wide and paved.

Lift a wing.

Please elaborate if you would - I learned to fly in a '39 J3 and TW is all I have ever known. No crabbing here, so if that is what you are referring to that is not the case. Even with rudder bottomed out the required aileron input would not overcome the crosswind at sustained 15kt with the gusts in between.

TxAgfisher wrote:

akaviator wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:I’ve got similar feelings, I don’t think the 180 has enough rudder - should add I only have about 40 hours in mine. I came home from Texas and had a 15kt direct crosswind and flew the entire final with the rudder pedal bottomed out and it still wouldn’t track straight down the runway. Bigger airports not a huge deal but where I’m at it’s only 25’ wide and paved.

Lift a wing.

Please elaborate if you would - I learned to fly in a '39 J3 and TW is all I have ever known. No crabbing here, so if that is what you are referring to that is not the case. Even with rudder bottomed out the required aileron input would not overcome the crosswind at sustained 15kt with the gusts in between.

I’d check your control surface deflections, listed in TCDS. And make sure the cockpit controls are getting them there.

MTV

TxAgfisher wrote:

akaviator wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:I’ve got similar feelings, I don’t think the 180 has enough rudder - should add I only have about 40 hours in mine. I came home from Texas and had a 15kt direct crosswind and flew the entire final with the rudder pedal bottomed out and it still wouldn’t track straight down the runway. Bigger airports not a huge deal but where I’m at it’s only 25’ wide and paved.

Lift a wing.

Please elaborate if you would - I learned to fly in a '39 J3 and TW is all I have ever known. No crabbing here, so if that is what you are referring to that is not the case. Even with rudder bottomed out the required aileron input would not overcome the crosswind at sustained 15kt with the gusts in between.

Turn into the wind. Try and shoot for a specific heading that will give you the desired track over the ground, which is your extended centerline. My technique with about every airplane is close to the same, fly the above and when close to touchdown simultaneously use rudder pressure to align the nose with the centerline, and aileron to keep you there. Might be a little of each, might be a lot depending on the wind.

I crab during the approach just to get an idea of how stiff the wind is and note my wind correction angle. I know I am in for a tough one when I see a 40 degree crab angle. I set up a side flip about 1/2 mile from final carrying more power and a higher airspeed - especially if it gusty. Some of the mountain flying books I have read recommend increasing the airspeed by 1/2 the gust factor. It takes time to get a natural feel for the 180 and how it behaves transitioning from the approach, flare, and ground run. Hopefully you will have steady X-winds for practice. The gusty X-winds with variable direction wind require a natural feel of the airplane and just take time. I would also be concerned about the rigging on the rudder if you feel you are running out of rudder with 15 knots direct X-wind component. You could try less use of flaps and also you should check to see if the rudder control effectiveness is only one sided (right versus left sided). I am not sure what the maximum X-wind component is where the rudder effectiveness is exceeded in an early 180 but I would guess somewhere in the 25-30 knot range.

Josh

From the POH on my '54 model-

LANDING IN STRONG CROSSWING.

(1) If the field length permits, land with flaps retracted.
(2) Use the wing low, crab, or combination method of drift correction.
(3) Either a three-point or wheel landing may be used.

There is no demonstrated crosswind component for my model year, but I see for a later K model it's only 12 knots.

It is a demonstrated component only, not a limitation.

akaviator wrote:
There is no demonstrated crosswind component for my model year, but I see for a later K model it's only 12 knots.

It is a demonstrated component only, not a limitation.

Demonstrated crosswind is often a useless data point. Demonstrated crosswind is simply the strongest crosswind component that the test pilots experienced during normal certification flight test. So, if it happened that they experienced some serious winds during the course of the flight test, it may be a pretty high number.

On the other hand, if flight test occurred during periods of little wind, it’ll be a low number.....and totally meaningless.......as that 12 knot number cited. It’s just the number they happened to experience.

Manufacturers don’t go looking for big crosswinds during flight test. It’s not a requirement, and why risk what is often the only example of the aircraft?

That said, fifteen knots is a no shit crosswind in a 180 or 185. And if there’s gusts, it can have hair all over it. In any case, the airplane can do it, but it’ll make you work at it. And you may use some interesting descriptors of the process.

MTV

Thanks, the above described essentially what I was thinking. All the rigging is spot on so that is not the issue.

mtv wrote:...
That said, fifteen knots is a no shit crosswind in a 180 or 185. And if there’s gusts, it can have hair all over it. In any case, the airplane can do it, but it’ll make you work at it. And you may use some interesting descriptors of the process.

MTV

I have never seen someone else state this! My personal limits have been low double digit x-wind component, and I felt like I have been missing something to handle larger x-winds. Maybe a 100 or so more hours and I’ll get it...

Rod

mtv wrote:….That said, fifteen knots is a no shit crosswind in a 180 or 185. And if there’s gusts, it can have hair all over it. In any case, the airplane can do it, but it’ll make you work at it. And you may use some interesting descriptors of the process.

Well put.