There's probably quite a few places in Canada. Unfortunately I wasn't able to go on a ski/climbing trip some friends took a couple years back on the Waptus glacier. Pretty benign. They didn't rope up at all during the week they were there. They did chopper in but the topo's and pictures, from what I remember, looked like there were some good flat sections.

Anyone with real info feel free to chime in. Nothing like 4th hand info from someone who hasn't done a bit of ski flying. In other words, go for it. I'm sure it's perfect.

TwinPOS wrote:

I attended a program a couple years ago here in Fairbanks about a group of local guys who landed on skis up in the mountains and spend the day exploring on backcountry telemark style skis. It showed them landing on saddles between 2 ridges. So it's definitly possible with some caution.

Nice, that is what I like to hear! Any pictures?

Yes, the presenter had lots of pictures! Unfortunately I don't.

Phil

POS,

Hey, negative I am, BECAUSE the vast majority of mountains in this country are property of the US government, and the vast majority, if not all of those, are in fact, closed to the landing of aircraft.

Note that helicopter operators do operate in this country, in some VERY restricted areas. They pay a fee per skier they drop off, and are permitted---practically to death.

Yes, this kind of stuff happens in Alaska. That wasn't your original question, though was it? And, it doesn't happen very MUCH in Alaska, cause there aren't that many places you can land in the mountains that aren't glaciers. Glaciers almost always have crevasses. Those can be hazardous to skiers. Landing on the side of a mountain just doesn't work, generally.

I'm negative?? Let's see, I suggested that there are a lot of such opportunities in Europe, and twas you who slammed that concept.

Motorcity:

Read the posts on this forum. The posts here do not involve OFF AIRPORT operations. They represent visiting airstrips in sorta remoter areas of the Lower 48 states, for the most part. Yes, there is an exception or two, but not many. That isn't bad, but there is a bit of difference between landing at a 4500 foot sprinkler irrigated groomed and mowed airstrip, and landing on a mountainside to go skiing.

The world of off airport flying is a VERY different one than back country flying, in my opinion. One is not better nor worse than the other, and there are a lot of off airport pilots who have no idea what density altitude is, and that can kill you at places like Soldier Bar, etc. I was NOT pontificating about skills, except to the point that:

A) Aircraft landing on Forest Service lands MAY be subject to seizure of the aircraft. Want to give your ride to Uncle Sugar? You'll likely get a fine as well. More importantly, you'll queer the whole deal for the rest of us who at least attempt to act responsibly in the backcountry. At the moment, there is a bill in the House to add a huge chunk of land in Montana to Wilderness status. That could well close some airstrips, and preclude all mechanized access to even more areas of the Lower 48.

B) Why not piss people off with an airplane? Hey, they're the ones that call their Congressional reps, and demand that they do something about those hoot owls flying around wilderness areas in little airplanes. Or, try acting responsibly. Novel concept.

C) After you land and get bad stuck or damage your airplane, come on back and let us know how it was. Off airport operations, especially ski operations, suggest a significant level of training and very specific skills to be successful ON FLAT GROUND. In Europe, you're not permitted to land on glaciers until you complete a specific training syllabus and so many glacier landings under the supervision of a glacier pilot. We don't have such rules here, but there are lots of reasons why we should. Land at altitude in ANY kind of even semi deep snow, and you'll be leaving your plane there for the winter.

Talk is cheap, and talk on the internet is even cheaper.

Let us know how it works out, Dude.

Been there, done that, don't need the shirt....

MTV

I figured it out MTV, you know everything! Now I get it. If I admit that you are right about everything you have ever said, will you save your negativity for someone else?

Motorcitymaule wrote:
I think everyone should land or at least try to land Off-airport before making there next post. Peter

Did it, it was great. Sat in a beautiful hot springs with some lovely co-eds that hiked in. Changed my perspective and hardened my resolve to have more off airport adventures.

TwinPOS wrote:I am sure with the right attitude, there are MANY places that would work for this kind of endeavour. I have a feeling they are not all that far away either.

Probably not in the twin POS though

Sorry ... Am I really the only one that thought it though?

sstjames, Idaho is pretty, no doubt, But there's a whole world out there.... I hope I never get too trapped into one state... I was just having a conversation about a couple cubbers that flew from VA to AK. They only stopped at airports for fuel. All overnighting, eat stops, pee stops etc, were done off field.... and there's more than just Idaho along the way

Rob wrote:

TwinPOS wrote:I am sure with the right attitude, there are MANY places that would work for this kind of endeavour. I have a feeling they are not all that far away either.

Probably not in the twin POS though

Good one. I thought that was fairly obvious, but now you have me thinking

TwinP,

thanks for taking my humor for what it was.... amazes me how people on forums get wound up so easy...

on the other hand, I've always thought the Aztec Nomad was a cool float plane, maybe the next wave will be the "Aztec Yeti" Twin Glacier plane

POS,

Sorry, but I don't know everything. I HAVE, though, landed on skis a lot, in a lot of different places, including mountains and glaciers.

My negatives were offered to suggest the potential for difficulties in the sort of operation that was intially suggested, ie: Landing a ski plane on a mountainside to go ski in powder snow.

My point was that there are significant dangers in that sort of operation, which you don't seem to get, and obviously I'm not going to convince you of.

I guess if all you wanted to hear was sunshine and light, I have failed you .

As I noted, off airport operations are a very different sort of evolution than other types of flying, and ski flying is pretty much the ultimate way to get in trouble in an airplane off airport.

It is also probably the most fun you can have in an airplane. Up to the point that you get stuck or break something that is. And if you fly skis very much, you'll do both, more than likely. I have. That's not bragging, it's simply a cold hard fact (and, yes it was cold ).

There are three issues here:

1) Land ownership. I don't think I need to reiterate this, but it is very complex and VERY negative in the lower 48 states. THere are, in fact, quite a few places you can land in the Lower 48 off airport and get away with it. I haven't seen many mountainsides so far that I would even think about landing on, but I'm new here, so maybe. There are going to be land ownership issues if caught, however, which brings up--

2) Ski operations. You asked about powder snow. As I noted, I don't ski, so I have no idea what depth of powder snow you are looking for. I can tell you, however, that experienced ski flyers are VERY reluctant to land high in much new snow at all. I have been VERY stuck in just this scenario, with about a foot of new snow. That was at altitude, but only about 6,000 feet, which isn't high by lower 48 standards. Ski performance and engine power are really ugly at altitude. In Europe, they land at very high altitudes, but not in new snow, at least until it has a chance to settle and pack.

3) I brought up the off airport thing primarily to point out that ski flying is a type of flying MOST likely to break something or to leave you out there in the cold camping. As noted, I've done both, which doesn't make me a better pilot, but I am more cautious and more realistic about what I can land on. And, I've been stuck on flat country, where I simply could not have seen the problem prior to landing.

So, the point I was trying to make was that there may be a few landable places in the Lower 48 where you could ski from your airplane.

These will generally have to be fairly level (even the pitches that most folks land on glaciers aren't really really that steep), it will have to be at an elevation where the engine develops enough umph to get you going in really tough conditions, and/or there will have to be a significant downhill stretch to use for takeoff. It will also have to be barren, which usually means either--bare rock and steep as all get out/above treeline (ie: high)/a glacier (those nasty crevasses)/OR possibly a small cirque lake, all of which would be a really challenging landing or takeoff scenario. Could be done, though.

I've watched turbine Otters launch off downhill, on a steep downhill takeoff, and shut down just before the crevasse field, only to unload, and power back up the hill. And, this is on well tracked snow, NOT untracked snow.

If I came across too harsh, I'll apologize, but you asked for information on the subject. If you don't want information, don't ask the question.

As to the public lands thing and legalities--I've had a pilot's certificate for a lot of years now. I've owned and operated airplanes a lot of years as well. I intend to continue to do so as long as my health permits. One key to that is to try to do things within the parameters set out for us in regulation. That's the individual side of it, but this notion has another aspect to it: If you land on public lands where such operations are prohibited, AND are observed or get caught, it will hurt everyone who loves backcountry and off airport flying. We already have so many restrictions, and so many enemies, we really don't need more.

And, as noted, on skis you are VERY likely to either get stuck or break something, hence the liklihood of being noticed is pretty good.

MTV

On Discovery Wings they use to have this short bit in between shows about some guy that landed a Beaver on floats on snow high up on a mountain. I wish I could remember the premise for why he did that.

Anyway, when he took off, he just pointed it downhill and off a cliff, and launched into space. I wish I could find a video link of it.

[quote="TwinPOS"]I figured it out MTV, you know everything! Now I get it. If I admit that you are right about everything you have ever said, will you save your negativity for someone else?
[quote]

Guess not

Hey Twin POS. Don't let MTV get to ya, he's only got about 30 years of Alaska wilderness flying under his belt, that makes a guy have a strong opinion...just ask Gump. Not all learning experiences are fun.

I have a friend with a gold mine in the North Cascades near Lost River Ranch(W12) . Its near Harts Pass, probably about 7500' near 48-40 North and 120-40 West They have gone heli skiing in this area called "airplane flat" with a helicopter service out of Mazama. We have been trying to get up there to scout out airplane flat by air and by land to check it out and maybe have a work party to get it in shape. This could be a fly in on skiis place in the winter, possibly. I have to check into the legality of landing there and get a good look at the site. I know it's a long ways from UT. When I get more info I'll make a post.

mtv wrote:I've watched turbine Otters launch off downhill, on a steep downhill takeoff, and shut down just before the crevasse field, only to unload, and power back up the hill. And, this is on well tracked snow, NOT untracked snow.
MTV

me too. and 185's and beavers. and i have seen the results of a beaver not aborting in time to avoid the cravasse feild. its very expensive.
thats why everyone here has the helicopter guys in big lake on speed dial bad things can, and do happen.
its a dangerous place. but its a lot of fun.

Zane,

The guy in the float Beaver you described was Bob Munro, who started and owned Kenmore Air. Those landings were in several places. He pioneered glacier landings on floats in British Columbia to support a mining operation. They based a Beaver up the BC coast and used it to support the mines.

Kenmore also supported a party of scientists in what is now Olympic National Park. Aircraft landings are no longer permitted in that Park.

Bob Munro was a class act. A superb pilot, a great business man (and those two rarely go together) and a just plain nice guy to boot. He went west a couple years ago, but he lived a heck of a life.

Marin Faure wrote a book about Kenmore, and Munro. Good book about a great company that is still running strong, run by Greg, Bob's son.

POS, there was at least one Aztec converted to skis in Canada. Why not buy a set, and give it a shot your own self?

MTV

It is possible to find places (at least in Alaska) where you can land at the top, and and at the bottom. One of the best days of skiing I remember was my dad dropping my brother and I off at the top, us skiing down, and him flying us back to the top. I think he was having more fun than we were. These places are rare though.

BUT, not only can you get yourself in way more trouble flying on skis, backcountry skiing has its dangers too. On this same trip, I watched one guy almost kill himself starting an avalanche. It was also in the exact same spot my dad told us not to go.

In the end the reward is often worth the hard work, laying down tracks where few to none ever have or ever will.

akdrifter-

That is awesome. You're right though, on any type of snowy terrain with significant slope, avalanche is always a huge concern. I never realized how much until I started reading these skiing forums a few years ago and in the middle of the season, it seemed like people were getting killed right and left.

I took an avalanche safety certification course last year, and learned that the fastest rising rate of avalanche fatalities by usergroup is with snowmobilers. Avalanche education isn't quite as common in the snow machine world, so these guys were going out in powder, high marking slopes and getting buried.

Sounds like your dad knew his stuff.
mtv-

Thanks for Bob Munro bit. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the Faure book. I'm currently part way through the Noel Wien story.

Motorcitymaule wrote:oh man, mtv, could you be any more of a downer? Jeess, and whats up with your bend on legal this and legal that.
I'm meet shit, is this not The Online OFF-AIRPORT Aviation Community!!!

The basic feeling from that web title is that we would all be interested in Off-Airport landings which are generally not Legal. I understand that there are police officers/pilots on this site but there likely interested in the same sorta flying or at least reading about it because they're cops and can't do it. Skycop take me for a ride in the gettochopper!! Or lets go fly my fixed wing together.
Are there police or FAA folks checking our posts for legality? If so FU. This is the internet!!

Not to mention US Park Rangers and Forest Service types...

I think everyone should land or at least try to land Off-airport before making there next post. Peter

Well, it would sure improve the information thrown around in here sometimes.

1SeventyZ wrote:akdrifter-

the fastest rising rate of avalanche fatalities by usergroup is with snowmobilers. Avalanche education isn't quite as common in the snow machine world, so these guys were going out in powder, high marking slopes and getting buried.

Sounds like your dad knew his stuff. I'm currently part way through the Noel Wien story.

That is also because most people out there in the "backcountry" are snowmachiners (as well call them in Alaska). Also the highest precentage of those are younger guys in their 20s. Its the whole "It wont happen to me" mentality. There are always several people who die or get hurt real bad every season. The same with aviation, there are always a number of crashes every year. Most people don't think about it, until it hits close to home that is. Ok, now Im off my soap box.

Yay TwinPOS for bringing up this multisport holy grail!

Any day you're flying your skiplane, wearing your avalanche beacon, pretty much has to be a great day, in my experience. Sounds like you're in Colorado, which I don't know much about (sorry), but I can emphatically say that it's worth chasing the dream.

I fly a Cessna 170B with stock engine/prop, which means that by the time I load up ski gear, winter survival gear, airplane covers, preheater, etc, etc..., it's functionally a one-place airplane. I added extended baggage last year, which gets the tele skis out of the front seat area. Not an insignificant safety consideration, especially with manual flaps.

I have always flown into lakes beneath terrain, and skinned for my turns. Sometimes I have made multiple trips to bring in friends, and sometimes rendezvoused with friends on snowmachines. (The second option is a great way to get a departure runway packed. Have the throttle-heads tear up and down the lake till they're out of two-stroke injection oil!)

One great aspect of ski-plane flying is that you can get away with flying in clumsy ski boots, since the brakes are inop anyway.

As you may already know, tele/alpine/touring skis are a poor substitute for snowshoes when you really need to pack a runway in the deep powder. I once spent an extra night out after learning this the hard way!

Have a great winter!

denalipilot wrote:Yay TwinPOS for bringing up this multisport holy grail!

As you may already know, tele/alpine/touring skis are a poor substitute for snowshoes when you really need to pack a runway in the deep powder.

Have a great winter!

We actually found it the opposite a bit. You can go faster, but maybe thats becuase there were 3-4 of us
Those are deffinatly the days I look forward to!

It's not the speed, it's the compacting ability. Snowshoes = more pounds per square foot compacting the snow to help your bird stay on top and get rotation speed. I can't say that I've entensively field tested both methods, but my friend and I once ski-packed a strip in four feet of fresh for Jay Hudson to pick us up, and he still remembered how stuck we got, when I last saw him (six years afterward). He was the one who clued me in to snowshoes (Thanks, Jay, and for getting us out anyway!)