So I bought the Cessna 150L that I learned to fly 17 years ago. Knowing the history of this plane and several owners over the years, I bought it knowing that the logs were Missing, past 2012.

So I purchased the engine and airframe for 5k. Engine is off and in the overhaul shop now 17K and I will have to spend some money getting a annual and transponder check..maybe a new set of tires....etc 1K+

So all and all I am in 5K+17k+1K = 23K

I think I tracked down a previous owner who had a dispute with the guy i bought my plane from. He said he is willing to "talk" about the logs, which leads me to believe he has them. Should I propose to buy the logs back from him....what kind of value do they hold?

Value is really determined by what somebody is willing to pay. I really dont want to be into this plane too much more. i believe the logs bring significant value to the plane should I sell in the future, but how much is too much?

If it has legal logs today I would be more concerned about the condition of the plane than old paperwork. Just my 2c.

Sounds like they have zero value to the guy who has them. Maybe he just wants to see someone who values his old plane?

Make him an offer he can't refuse.


Tim

I agree with the above comment. Condition of the plane is more important than old logs. Guys that hold old logs when they no longer own the plane are just being pri(ks. Especially on GA airplanes that don't have any time life'd components

The US logs on my 1959 are missing from prior to 1977 when it was exported to Canada. Only 3 previous owners, the guy i bought the plane from (never got them when he bought it, didn't even think about asking for them) A group of three partner owners and the original importer owner. None of the group of three would return calls or facebook messages. I tracked them all down. The original owner had died and his wife was very nice and sent me lots of original pics when they owned it, but all logs went to the group of three. My 1977 had logs back to the test flight in Wichita, with almost 11K hrs, there was lots of books.

They really don't mean anything substantial when they are that old, I just like reading them like an old novel. They are the legacy of the machine - makes me sad that they are probably dumped in a corner of someones basement or tossed out by now by someone who didn't know or care what they were.

As long as you have documentation on any STC's or other changes to the aircraft the logs are nice but not worth much. FAA should have all 337's on file, I think it 10 bucks to get them. Common for logs to get lost when someone does not want to pay for work done on the plane. A few years back local plane got lost over some non-payment issues.
DENNY

There is little in the old logs that really matters anymore, particularly now that you're overhauling the engine. Now we're only talking about airframe logs.

It could be argued that you bought the airplane at a discount because it didn't have all logs present. Is there a number in your mind representing this discount?

It shouldn't take much to get the guy to part with them, although he is the only seller that has what you might like to purchase, you are also his only potential buyer!

Figure out what caused his pain, and what he feels about it. Try to work out that pain for him. I also agree that letting him know what the airplane means to you will help. This isn't about money. Let him have a small win and reunite the logs.

A number? $250

.. "previous owner who had a dispute with the guy i bought my plane from. He said he is willing to "talk" about the logs,..."

I think I would be more concerned in the "dispute" and if the previous owner had registered a lien on the new owner. I hope you checked.
Pete

Value of logs on a Cessna 150 with a newly overhauled and documented engine? Zero. Call the guy and talk him up, but I wouldn't pay him anything but postage and handling.

MTV

mtv wrote:Value of logs on a Cessna 150 with a newly overhauled and documented engine? Zero. Call the guy and talk him up, but I wouldn't pay him anything but postage and handling.

MTV

X2-The value is what is the present condition, AD compliance and mod status. Even previous damage if repaired to original or better condition is immaterial. The concept of "damage history" devalued airframes is for the Yuppie Bonanza buyers who think the're buying a one owner executive driven Mercedes. The real world of working aircraft (Boeings and Airbus etc) place the value on current usable condition. Not perceived halabaloo. A 40 year old airframe should have numerous repairs throughout its lifetime reflecting continuous maintenance.

c-note max.

Tim

Every aircraft that I have bought had complete logs from day one. Incomplete log books are a big red flag and I would not take a second look unless the discount was really deep.

The value of the logs ultimately depend on if you plan to keep or flip the plane though. I look at every airplane as an investment that must be able to be liquidated for the money that I have in it at any time.

Personally, I would talk to the guy via email or text message and have him detail exactly what he has in writing. Once you have confirmation that he has the logs, bring him to the realization that selling the logbooks to the owner of the aircraft is indeed a dicey move.

The logs belong to the plane, and exist for absolutely nothing more than documenting the service history of the aircraft. If he is a dildo about it, I would probably consult with an aviation attorney to see what recommendations he has. Once you have the confirmation in writing, throw the L-word out there and see if he turns them over.

I've owned three airplanes, a C140, a Pacer and my current C120. None of them had complete log books. More important was what was in the latest logbooks.

I was able to sell my 46' C140, in the early 70's without the original logbooks, the Pacer I sold to a guy in Yakima, when the fabric wouldn't pass a punch test, and he recovered it. Both are still registered and flying.

My current C120 was given the once over by my A&P/IA, and all AD's were confirmed etc. The logs only exist for the plane since 1956. It seems to fly okay without the old logbooks, and I'm confident that anything that might have been in those lost books were addressed when the A&P/IA went over the airplane before I bought it.

Unless someone buys a plane as an investment, (that was a joke by the way,) then I see the entries since the last annual as more important than an annual or whatever from 1946. If an A&P/IA is finding stuff missed during a previous annual, that's concerning.

If someone were to come to me and say they had the original logbooks, I would pay the postage, and thank them for being decent. If that person wanted to ransom the books, I would send him a photo of an outhouse, and he could figure out the rest.

But that's just me and my opinion.

S39Pilot wrote:Unless someone buys a plane as an investment, (that was a joke by the way,)

I didn't really mean "investment", but old GA airplanes typically sell for slightly more or less than what you pay for them on the used market. If I spend money on a plane, I don't write that cash off like I would cash spent on a pair of shoes, toilet paper or a new car.

If you fly a plane for 300 or 400 hours, and sell it for what you bought it for, that's a decent investment in my opinion, but I'm not an investment wizard.

Postage and $20 for going to the post office. If that doesn't resonate with him, then let his kids deal with throwing it all away when he's dead.

Basic negotiation: don't make the first offer. Get him to tell you what he wants for them. Then you decide whether you want to pay that, or make him a counter offer. But what you have in your hip pocket is your willingness to walk away, so your counter offer shouldn't be very magnanimous.

The reason you're willing to walk away is that complete logs on that old an airplane aren't very valuable, i.e., having them or not having them doesn't change the airplane's value hardly any at all. They're just "nice to have". It's a bit like when you buy a used car that has new tires vs. one that has 10,000 miles on tires which have an 80,000 mile life.

Cary

Mark Y. wrote:...The US logs on my 1959 are missing from prior to 1977 when it was exported to Canada. Only 3 previous owners, the guy i bought the plane from (never got them when he bought it, didn't even think about asking for them) ....

Dunno if there's any truth to it, but I heard once that when a US airplane is imported into Canada, the US logbooks are confiscated (??) by Transport Canada (also ??). I assume previous AD compliance etc would be documented in new Canadian logbooks at the time of an import conformity inspection.
Sounded highly unlikely to me.....but just crazy enough to be true.

hotrod180 wrote:

Mark Y. wrote:...The US logs on my 1959 are missing from prior to 1977 when it was exported to Canada. Only 3 previous owners, the guy i bought the plane from (never got them when he bought it, didn't even think about asking for them) ....

Dunno if there's any truth to it, but I heard once that when a US airplane is imported into Canada, the US logbooks are confiscated (??) by Transport Canada (also ??). I assume previous AD compliance etc would be documented in new Canadian logbooks at the time of an import conformity inspection.
Sounded highly unlikely to me.....but just crazy enough to be true.

Not true at all. TC could care less about the US logs in my experience. Although all the planes that I have worked on have none of those old US logs as far as I know. Maybe in the owners basement somewhere, but I doubt it. The only one I know of that jad them was my Citabria that I imported, but they went with it when it went back to Columbus.

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Cary,

Very good advice and insight. I agree. All the STC's and old 337 from a minor wing Leading edge repair in the 90's were included in the paperwork when I bought a records search and lien search. I personally know the history of the plane and it is a "like to have" thing for me. The owner before the guy i bought it from was an A&P IA who was a hoarder. I think he was evicted and may have lost them. I HOPE he still has them.

Everyone advice is spot on and I appreciate it. As a non A&P aircraft tech that was in the USAF, I understand aircraft MX. However i am afraid the stigma potential buyers have..of a no logs aircraft. Even myself I am a little Leary of seeing a plane with no logs..because it smells like a salvage bird or damaged bird somebody is trying to offload. Like people do with salvaged cars in the U.S and try to hide the damage and clean up the title.

Anyways...great advice and in the end I wont worry about not having the logs. Wheeeew. Aircraft ownership. I am long time GA pilot, but new owner and I am learning.

The ownership learning curve can be really steep at times!

Cary

For perspective, the logs are incomplete before 1977. It's 2017. How many years is that? For me, I don't think it would be a deal killer, but I do think the old logs have value. FWIW, Here's my rationale: I've heard of a couple of instances where long since completed undocumented work was viewed as 'unairworthy' by a particularly picky IA (on this, my current airfield). In another case, a couple of years ago a local pilot I know walked away from what he described as a 'clean' Cherokee 140 that had undocumented work (that looked well done), though the seller did have original logs through present.

Some stuff is easy to come by, like the 337’s from the FAA, or the accident history. Others, less so, such as CIAW for some appliances like engine changes or other major air frame upgrades. This is particularly true with orphaned STC's or appliances.

I guess I'd be willing to pay what might be a 'ransom' in the eyes of some who have commented. That' it's "ransom" is not my view. The current owner didn't steal the logs. And the big "L" previously suggested would likely be very expensive in both time and money... and with not guarantee of "success", i.e. getting all of the desired historical documents.

What do attorney's in your area charge for a couple of hours of consultation and a demand letter??? which, by the way, may be ignored or and will certainly ruffle a lot of feathers. I'd suggest you Estimate the cost of a legal battle as your maximum offer - then negotiate. You'll sleep better, and probably vastly improve your chances of a win. Just my $.02 worth of random thoughts.