Backcountry Pilot • Maule

Maule

Technical and practical discussion about specific aircraft types such as Cessna 180, Maule M7, et al. Please read and search carefully before posting, as many popular topics have already been discussed.
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Re: Maule

flyingzebra wrote:Out of six airplanes I've owned, two were Maules. Great all around backcountry and utility aircraft. I would strongly suggest though, that horsepower is a HUGE factor in Maules. It's great to get it down and stopped in 150' but the 700 foot GW takeoff roll was a little anemic in the 180 HP M5 we just sold. Buy as much power as you can find then go have as much fun as you can stand!


700 feet is a lot more than an M7-235, I suppose, but it seems pretty short compared to my PA-22-135 at gross...with a cruise prop...
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Re: Maule

flyingzebra wrote:Out of six airplanes I've owned, two were Maules. Great all around backcountry and utility aircraft. I would strongly suggest though, that horsepower is a HUGE factor in Maules. It's great to get it down and stopped in 150' but the 700 foot GW takeoff roll was a little anemic in the 180 HP M5 we just sold. Buy as much power as you can find then go have as much fun as you can stand!


We have the MX7-180 and it will get it off the ground in the same distance as an M5-235 when equally loaded. The difference being the length of the wing on the MX7 or M7 models compared to the M5 models. With an M5-180 you have both the shorter wing and the low HP. However, even with the longer wing on the MX7 or M7, once we break ground, the higher HP M5 maintains a higher climb rate and will outrun us by about 5-10 kts depending how it is outfitted, but it will burn more fuel and cannot run MoGas. Another advantage with the MX or M7-180 is that you have a higher useful load due to the lighter weight of the powerplant.

I have operated out of a 700' strip (no obstacles) alongside an M5-235 on multiple occasions...both will do it without a problem...if there were obstacles it would get tight.

IMHO- The best of both worlds is to find a M7 model with the 235 or even the 260...now you have the long wing AND the higher HP.
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Re: Maule

mention was made earlier of having a tractor parts store nearby... when I bought my maule in Minn. and flew it home we did a overnight in Tucumcari.. went to start the next morning and lo and behold a dead battery, on a sunday... no aircraft parts stores open or even there on the field... borrowed the FBO car and went to a auto parts store with the battery and found a Sears garden tractor battery was an exact match.. Installed and flew home and for a few months after that too...Didn't use my leatherman to install it but I could have.... :lol:
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Re: Maule

Winchester,
I like Maules so much that I am on my way back from Palmer, AK with my new Maule. I base my plane in Eastern Colorado. I like them for the reasons that everyone else has mentioned. I think the perfect combination would be an M6 turned up to 260 hp. One can always pull the power back.

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Re: Maule

What are the 'unique' characteristics that have caused Maules to love insurance dollars? In other words, I have searched, read, etc and never flown a Maule but am curious if they are a handful and that is why insurance is higher than other like aircraft.

Are they really more to handle than other similar tailwheel?

Thanks
Travis
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Re: Maule

29singlespeed wrote:What are the 'unique' characteristics that have caused Maules to love insurance dollars? In other words, I have searched, read, etc and never flown a Maule but am curious if they are a handful and that is why insurance is higher than other like aircraft.

Are they really more to handle than other similar tailwheel?

Thanks
Travis


They are not necessarily a handful, but they are not as forgiving as other tailwheels that they are most often classified with as similar. I would say that the Maule is more similar to a Pitts on landing than a C-185 for instance. With the big tail, narrow gear, and high lift wing it keeps your attention on landing with any decent crosswind and is not very forgiving of sloppiness or inattention.

The insurance rates on them has some to do with the handling characteristics, but also many other factors.
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Re: Maule

I often think it is because of where you see them. Off airport operations are fun, but they expose a pilot to more damage. Rough fields, hidden logs and holes all make insurance claims. #-o The more claims in type cause higher rates for that aircraft. If we had fewer claims the rates should go down.

But what fun would it be if we had to spend our days on asphalt. :D
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Re: Maule

As I thought. I look forward in flying one some day soon. First hand experience is the only way to compare!
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Re: Maule

Travis, if you go to my site www.maules.com click on Specifications, then click Chronology you can see the 43+ (I need to update) different models produced by Maule over the years. Seats, engines, wings, props, landing gear years built and model designations.
Call me if that does'nt do it or you need more.
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Re: Maule

maulewaco wrote:Because, You can still buy a new one, so every ding dong with big cash and no TW time can buy one then crash it. Then they walk with a wow that was a pile of crap hard to fly airplane rumor to spread and we pay for it!!! Jackasses :shock:


Are the new Husky's and Cub variants suffering the same loss rate from the rich jackasses?
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Re: Maule

Bonanza Man wrote:Are the new Husky's and Cub variants suffering the same loss rate from the rich jackasses?


They are on par with the Doctor killing Bonanza's :lol:

As I mentioned before, there is a lot more to the insurance rates on a Maule than just the number of losses.
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Re: Maule

maules.com wrote:Travis, if you go to my site http://www.maules.com click on Specifications, then click Chronology you can see the 43+ (I need to update) different models produced by Maule over the years. Seats, engines, wings, props, landing gear years built and model designations.
Call me if that does'nt do it or you need more.


Yes, I have been to your site and seen it. Thanks for cataloging it all. Is all the variations why insurance is higher?

lowflybye wrote:As I mentioned before, there is a lot more to the insurance rates on a Maule than just the number of losses.


Sorry to ask, care to share more insight? Risk assessment is indeed a larger formula the # Aircraft / # Accidents. I am just unclear why the Maule seems to be the most expensive TW to insure. Granted, not the only cost going into operating cost and insurance is at an all time low for aviation.
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Re: Maule

There is a thread explaining the insurance rates somewhere here by Lowflyby.
I think it might boil down to numbers of a model out there and premiums taken in versus claims.
Ie there are 6000 C180/185s and a claim has much less impact than one claim out of 400 Maule 235hp premiums.
I imagine the computers do the decision making based income v claim cost.
It is up to the pilots to be more careful. You would be amazed at what I come across re pilot capability because of lack of appropriate training.
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Re: Maule

Makes sense to me, then I have some a of a background in insurance. My orignal question was really if there are flight characteristics of a Maule that makes them more challenging than other TW. I am deducing that there are not.

Thanks all!
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Re: Maule

The funny part is that so many "average Joe" airplane owners complain all day long about the rich jackasses in aviation, then when they go to sell their airplane they put up a grossly overblown asking price in Trade-a-Plane , and then they sit by the phone praying for... wait for it... some rich jackass to come along and pay their full asking price.

I can say this with the highest possible level of credibility, because I personally have indeed been both the rich jackass and the average Joe at various times in the last 50 years 8)
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Re: Maule

29singlespeed wrote:Sorry to ask, care to share more insight? Risk assessment is indeed a larger formula the # Aircraft / # Accidents. I am just unclear why the Maule seems to be the most expensive TW to insure. Granted, not the only cost going into operating cost and insurance is at an all time low for aviation.


Sure… I had posted some of this in other threads so forgive me if some is a repeat.

These are not issues limited to only the Maule as there are other aircraft that “suffer” from some of the same. Insurance rates all depend on the amount of money collected minus the amount paid in claims for each model aircraft. This is known as the loss ratio there is one for each model aircraft. It is determined by taking the total amount paid in claims for a specific model aircraft and dividing that number by the total amount of premium collected for that aircraft. If the loss ratio exceeds about 70% for a given model aircraft then it it not profitable to write it at the current premium. Somewhere around the 70% mark is the breakeven point for a loss ratio once the cost of doing business is paid...i.e. rent, payroll, expenses to adjust a claim (these are independent of the claim itself) The breakeven loss ratio for each aircraft varies by company.

The loss ratio is dependent on many factors, not the least of which is the number of aircraft in a specific model that are insured. The more aircraft insured, the less a single loss will affect the ratio. Compared to other similar models, the Maules are a minority when looking at production numbers so there are less of them that can be insured meaning that each loss affects the group to a greater degree. Another factor that affects the loss ratio is the cost of claims. While a fatal loss will hit a loss ratio very hard, thankfully they are not a frequent occurrence. What are frequent occurrences are the “smaller” claims such as propstrikes, wingtips, and bent gear. While these “smaller” claims do not seem like much, consider the average value of a Maule. I would venture an educated guess that across the fleet the average value is around $50,000 - $60,000. A prop strike often requires a tear down inspection and parts, new prop, etc. The claim for a simple prop strike can easily hit $30,000 and that does not include any damage to the airframe that often accompany it. With relatively low values and the high cost of repair a “small” claim can quickly become a total loss.

If we put all that together it looks similar to this: If 100 Maule aircraft are insured by a single company at an average value of $50,000 and at an average of $2,500 per year in premium it will add $250,000 to the ratio. 70% of that $250,000 equals $175,000 meaning that if losses incurred exceed $175,000 the company has lost money on writing the Maule. Now, if only 17 of those Maules have a prop strike claim of no more than $10,000 during the year, the company will lose money. If there are only 4 total losses in that year with no other losses, the company will lose money. If there are 2 fatalities that year and no other losses, the company will lose money. Keep in mind that 2 fatalities can come from one accident as the passengers are (usually) each covered for up to $100,000. The reality is that there will be a mixed bag of losses each year so it is a gambling numbers game.

There are other issues that contribute to the premiums as well such as the number of different models of Maules that have been produced. This becomes an issue when you take the relatively small total number of Maules and divide them by 43+ models of which some major parts (i.e. wings) may not be interchangeable which compounds the issue when it comes time for repairs. Combine this with a factory that does not keep a ready supply of parts for the fleet and many are custom made when ordered…not to mention parts have been known to take extended periods of time to receive when ordered. This extends the time it takes to repair a claim which increases the administrative cost of handling the claim and often the storage cost of the aircraft awaiting repairs away from home.

As I said, there is a lot more to the insurance rates than just the number of losses. Just because insurance is high on a particular aircraft does not necessarily mean it is dangerous. Also as I mentioned at the beginning of this post, these variables are not Maule specific and affect other aircraft as well. Take the aforementioned examples and input the variables for something like a Cessna 180 / 185 and you will get an even better idea…higher values, more readily available parts, more common parts between models, larger fleet, etc.

This is still just an overview of some of the factors that go into the rating of aircraft, but hopefully it answers some of your questions.
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Re: Maule

EZFlap wrote:I can say this with the highest possible level of credibility, because I personally have indeed been both the rich jackass and the average Joe at various times in the last 50 years 8)


EZFlap's new callsign = Jackass Joe :lol:
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Re: Maule

Great explanation. So Maule's don't bite more than others, they are just smaller numbers of total planes.
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Re: Maule

lowflybye wrote:
EZFlap wrote:I can say this with the highest possible level of credibility, because I personally have indeed been both the rich jackass and the average Joe at various times in the last 50 years 8)


EZFlap's new callsign = Jackass Joe :lol:


Whatever it is, I've been called worse :shock:

Been tryin' to live down those rich jackass years by taking a vow of aviation poverty and sacrificing my sanity in places like this [-o<

But your post reminds me... once knew a guy who I used to call "Jackpot Joe", a small-time con man, chronic addict gambler, and small-time actor. His real name was Joe Viterelli; later after we parted company he was that horrible looking guy who played a mobster named "Jelly" in the movies Analyze This and Analyze That. He and his friend borrowed a pickup truck from me one night to go move a refrigerator, and returned it the next day with a three foot diameter scorch-burn mark in the bed. As my hero once said... what a maroon!
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Re: Maule

EZFlap wrote:
Whatever it is, I've been called worse :shock:



I'm just messin with ya EZ...
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