Kurt, is this what you wanted? -Z
--------------------------------------------------

YELLOWMAULE wrote:I don't have too many toys on the plane as yet. Am considering VG's, BW's & finding more ways to strip weight (I need to focus on my weight, not the poor plane) I've been running fuel through the lines instead of bolt ons. The only items I have that I wouldn't trade are double puck Clevelands w/ 8:50's and the elevator gap seal. Consistent 250' landings with full fuel and one person. I would really like to see if VG's would effect this and what if any on T/O.

Kurt,

I doubt that VG's will give you much shorter landing roll than you're doing currently, but it will sure feel a lot more comfortable in the pattern and on final approach. 250' is pretty damn good with an M-4. I'm curious, what final approach speeds are you using to attain such a short landing roll, and are you leaving power in to touchdown to get it on the ground that slow or just getting on the brakes hard at touchdown?

I'm constantly trying to improve my short field techniques, but I'm not sure how much that really matters when it takes more room to get off the ground than it does to land. At approx. 2100 lbs. GVW I'm using 500'-800' of ground to get off depending on the density altitude when we're in the mountains. That's the main reason I want to install a longer prop and bushwheels. The prop I'm currently using is only 76". I don't have a need to get in and out in 300-400' on any kind of regular basis, but I do like having the additional comfort zone that comes with knowing that I can.

The answer is yes to both. On short final, about 50 mph, forty degrees and a flare immediately before the numbers, 13" MP all down on final. the IO-360 has a little bit of a burble going from dead idle to ramping up for a go around or whatever. It seems to take a lifetime when I need it, so I always carry a little all the way through to immediate flare. When I flare, off comes the power and then heavy braking and get the flaps off. Keep in mind, I'm on pavement and it greatly improves the affect of the brakes. It's not especially graceful but seems to work pretty good and there is control throughout.
Now, a question for you VG types, tell me the affect on take off before and after?
Zane, do I need a new thread here?

There seems to be some improvement in takeoff roll but it's difficult to quantify. The plane does feel a whole lot more solid in ground effect and during climbout.

I have been flying my M4 quite a bit after the VG install trying to arrive at some #'s for use in T.O. and L's. Let me start with the configured weight being about 1950. That is me, full fuel and my misc. survival kit, backpack etc. As you can see I'm still 350 lbs below max gross so adjust as you see fit.

On take off. Things happen pretty fast but this is how I have been doing it. First, I have always used one notch or 15 degrees of flaps and I set them before taxi onto the active. My theory here is 15 degrees of non-fowlers the size of the M4 flap is not a lot of drag but does of course help the stall speed. In Cessna's I used the flaps "on the roll" in my short field ops. Anyway, I allow a bit of ground roll and help the tail up. I don't force it up but I don't let it fly itself off either. I think there is some area for improvement here as you guys know forcing the tail up prematurely creates a heck of a lot of drag. Of course once the tail is up the airplane will be cleaner and will accelerate quicker. I rotate as the ASI sweeps through the 40mph mark with liftoff at appx 45 mph. Here is where I see a difference with VG's. Before the VG's that aggresive of a rotation would usually lead to a mushy, not sure if I want to fly feel that is no longer there with the VG's. The plane will continue to accelerate and I use a target of 60-65 mph at a pretty wicked angle. Once at 500' with a good positive rate of climb, I'll push the nose over, retract flaps and make a rpm reduction especially if in a noise sensitive area. At the same time I'll go to the best rate of climb speed of 90 mph to continue the climb.

I'll have to report back on length of T.O. roll using this technique but I don't think it is more than 500-600 feet at 2,100 feet asl on pavement.

For landing, I have been experimenting here also. I feel pretty good about 55 mph over the fence and would say touch down in the 45 mph range with good control (much better with the VG's) in a three point landing will net a pretty short rollout if you dump flaps and get on the brakes.

Again, I need to get some measurements on our lights to really quantify the distance.

Greg, aka mauleguy, of bushwheel fame, says he can get the shortest roll via a wheel landing. I would not doubt this as Greg knows his stuff. I just don't have that kind of a handle on my airplane at this point. I'm still better off IMHO trying to make a spot three pointer.

Just my .02 and probably overpriced at that.

BTW, Kurt, if you find a good technique at "stripping weight" please pass it along as I'm 230lbs and could sure use about 30-40 more lbs of useful...

Mark

Yellowmaule wrote:

the IO-360 has a little bit of a burble going from dead idle to ramping up for a go around or whatever.

You might try different mixture settings
check the magneto timing
check the accelerator pump in the carb if equiped
to see if that will make the burble go away.

Benflyn: Thanks for the suggestions on set up. I check the mags about twice a year; 20 degrees on the nose, rebuilt a little over a year ago. It's injected so the carb's out. But the mixture could always be messed with. I have talked to others with the same engine and they have a similar observation, so I don't know yet. There is always room for improvement!
Mark, Wheelers are tough in the M-4, at least they are for me. I can do it OK in a 170, Aeronca and Cub but the Maule has a combination of being short fuselage and a relatively heavy tail weight. I also carry a 25lb survival kit and a little extra gear, tie downs, tools and a little oil.
It would be fun to have the resources to spend a weekend trying the VG's and different sized BW's to change the AOA, a crew to measure and judge, but not criticize the landings! I would also the share the libations later on!

Kurt,

I have been able to get pretty good at wheelies but it takes carrying a smidge of power and a very stable low rate of sink at touchdown or it ends up as one bounce to a three pointer and the old "yeah, I meant to do that"
By no means is this an effective short field option, IMHO.

Between Doug, you, and I we should get together and get the data down on paper for the M4's or, at least partake of the libations...

Cheers,

Mark

It's way out of your way, but I have the perfect place. air nav : KUIL
It's an abandoned airfield with a one acre hangar, no planes at the field. Camping and a day of T & G's and the beach is right there.
I was in your neck of the woods last summer. Nice airport, good people too.
I would like to spend a day with someone videoing the landings (to hold against me later) One camera out of the plane and the other inside, over my shoulder. Sit down and compare them and note differences in distance with technique. Could be enlightening and embarassing!

I'll come!

Let's think of one of the strips in the Cascades like Easton State, big, camping OK and central to most of us in WA. What say you all?

Whoaa now wait a minute,,, video??? I just bounced out of my chair just thinking about it !

Actually, that sounds great to me. I always have pic's / video of other planes etc. but never of my own. Figure out a place and let's see about a date.

Mark

Kurt, if you're looking for incriminating evidence I have footage of your "Mister Toad's Wild Ride" landing at Port Townsend last year. I been keeping it a secret waiting for a moment like this.....

Eric

Now I understand your knowing grin! You're a dog.
See you out and about this weekend.

Ok, we have a show of hands here for a get together to refine our skills and share info (RIGHT, we will use any excuse!). So let's find some way of doing it in the next month or so. Time is my crux right now so I have to stay within a state or so of home. Weather is also a bitch this time of year. I'm a see'um, fly'um kind of guy. Read that as a VFR pilot with a small set.
Jr, you show, you fly too! Not fair recording the FOPAHS of others. I appreciate the offer to film from the ground but this will be like a 12 step course, we ALL fly and get filmed. Think of it as an unsanctioned training camp.
Mark, I know what you mean. I have a couple of pictures that have been taken of me in flight. Kevin Griffen got a neat one of Chelle and I departing some strip in Idaho and a couple in OR got one of us on touch down at dusk. I have never seen or heard my plane from the outside in flight. I think that would be neat but the thought of someone else flying my roadsign, well, it gives me a certain hessitation. Loosing weight? Carry the wine in a box & burn the residual!
Eric, I know your lurking out there and really want to throw your hat in the ring! Let's hear it.
John's gone for a couple of days playing with all of his expensive, deadly, dangerous toys but I'll be willing to speak for him (hehe).

Back to the landing thing; the advantage of having the tailwheel up is dramatically improved brake effectiveness. The more weight on the wheels the harder you can press on the brakes with out skidding. There is no law that says you can't three point and then pick the tail up, and then brake. Use the elevator and brakes in conjunction to control pitch. The great thing about this technique is that you get the benefit of a full stall landing, and the improved visibility of of a wheelie during roll out. Once you get the hang of it you can land with the brakes slightly applied. It's not as hairy as it sounds, just take it in steps.

OH No! This is not a "Maule" thing, this would be an anyone thing. From ragwings to whatever, I just think it would be great to get together and see how everyone else does it.
We missed a great day yesterday and Saturday, incredible weather!
I'm a crappy planner, (ask my wife) so I am open to ideas.