Hi, I believe this is my first post here so without formal introduction my name is David and I have a question

I have recently moved to Colorado and the local fbo has a minimum hr requirement for make and model. I am a low time pilot, 100 hrsTT 50 in a 152 and 50 in a J-3.... all within the past year. I carry my own renters insurance and called to confirm that I am in fact covered in the aircraft I am looking to rent. I have taken a check ride in the plane and the instructor said everything was fine. The issue now is the FBO wants me to send in my info to their insurance company to see if they will cover me. Is this typical or should it not matter b/c I carry my own insurance???? With proof of your own insurance you are not charged the pool insurance hrly so I dont see how it covers me anyways and my insurance should be the only thing that matters... Am I missing something? I am obviously new to flying though seems somewhat straight fwd to me though I know insurance can be tricky topic.
any thoughts?

I don't know the details of your situation but when I was renting I always carried a seperate rental policy that included hull and a 1 million dollar general liability policy. It was pretty cheap and painless. Have fun and if your new to Colorado remember the phrase "check density altitude" this summer. Have Fun

Hi there! The only time i ever rented was with my own insurance and the fbo didn't require another plan but i was with one of their instructors. They do also have minimum hour requirements and want an instructor checkout for solo rental. Where are ya in colorado?

Same here. One flight required a specific minimum coverage. Once I showed proof I was good to go. Another flight school didn't require anything but I purchased enough to cover deductible and a little more as well as a 1 mil liability. I'm sure it's the deductible they want to you to be covered for.

It is very important for you to find out who, exactly, is covered by the insurance. Typically the FBO carries insurance for itself, NOT the renter. Often they will inform the renter that in the event of a loss, the renter must pay the FBO's deductable, causing the renter to erroneously assume that is the full extent of their potential liability. However, FBOs frequently fail to mention that after the insurance company pays the FBO's claim, the insurer may "subrogate" against the renter, demanding (or suing for) compensation for the insurer's settlement of the FBO's claim. You should ask the FBO to see the non-subrogation clause or a waiver of subrogation in the policy. If the FBO can't provide such language, then you are not covered, and you should buy renters insurance if you can't self-insure. Keep in mind that you will probably want both liability and hull coverage.

karbonkid wrote:The issue now is the FBO wants me to send in my info to their insurance company to see if they will cover me. Is this typical or should it not matter b/c I carry my own insurance????

This is unusual and they really need to get a clue. On the other hand a local FBO in NM asked me to sign a permission for them to pull my criminal background file from the county. I would not normally stand for such overreach, but they were the only place in town that offers an airplane that I wanted to try out, so I signed. How many FBOs do you have in town and what are they like? The competitors of the place that I just mentioned are much friendlier and so I usually rent from them. Maybe something for you to consider, too.

Rental FBO's are usually small businesses that are one loss away from hanging it up. If they want to make sure their ducks are in a row regarding conditions of their insurance to cover loss, that is their prerogative. It's just a little more time and effort to get squared away for you, but for them it could be the difference between having revenue to pay wages, or staring at a pile of uncovered junk while bills rack up.

I'm carrying $80K worth of hull coverage on my rental policy per the arrangement with my FBO, and my hours in tailwheel, etc were scrutinized. Just part of the insurance game...can't blame normal folks for making sure a youngster who likely (for all they know) does not have $30K in the bank to pay out of pocket.

I haven't rented for many years but I do fly other planes once in a while. The policy I have for my plane makes me covered for any plane I fly up to the hull damage that I'm insured for on my own plane. I got to pay out of pocket for a wrecked plane..it hurt but did not harm my reason for flying. Something to think about when you are climbing into a plane you don't own...can I replace/repair this machine if something were to go wrong?
I don't begrudge an airplane renter to have some information on who's renting their plane..as was said before, it could put the airplane renter out of business if something bad were to happen.

It used to be you could walk into an FBO and show your license, medical, log book, go for a quick hop around the patch with their instructor and rent their planes. I did it several times on vacation in various parts of the country when I was young. Sometimes I hadn't planned on it so just had my license and medical and the gift of 'gab' to get to the checkout flight.
Now the lawyers and insurance companies have everybody so under their regulations with all of the exceptions to the exceptions yada yada yada that it can't really be done without a long paperwork dance and a call to their insurance agent/company. I don't even try anymore. I would have to start the process a month ahead long distance, and I want to walk in and get the flavor of a place, attitude their sporting, and look at their birds before I will decide whether or not I want to rent there.
All this crap KILLs business/flying. It used to be airplane insurance by the FBO meant it was INSURED. Now they (ins co.) can turn around and sue you (renter) for their payout loss after they make the FBO whole from a loss. This way the insurance co gets insurance premiums from BOTH the renter and the FBO on the same plane/accident with one payout risk. If you want to rent-you have to play by their rules.

The world ain't a better place. Insurance co.s and lawyers screwing everybody.
lc

PS How many examples would you like? It is all through the economy/society-not just airplanes/flying. There is NO shortage....... Damn lawyers runnin' the country....

Littlecub,

Nope, you're wrong on several counts. The insurance industry has always had the option to subrogate against a non owner to recover their loss. And, that is a very real possibility.

The question is this, though: How often does this actually happen? I would bet that the answer is pretty rarely, and generally only in cases where the renter did something illegal or pretty stupid. Nevertheless, having (probably) violated a regulation at some point in my illustrious career, and for sure having done a few dumb stunts in airplanes, I carry non owned aircraft insurance. Mostly because I flight instruct, and my insurance is instructor's insurance as well as non owned aircraft insurance.

In my experience, most FBOs that rent airplanes don't care that much whether the renter has his/her own insurance or not. The FBO is covered by THEIR insurance policy, so all they have to recoup in case of an incident is their deductable. And, they can probably eat that if they have to. On the other hand, the loss of revenue from a busted airplane, as noted can put a small outfit out of business.

A flying CLUB, however, is going to have to cover themselves better, because teh members are going to have to eat the loss of the deductable.

As to lawyers (and I am NOT a big fan of lawyers) it isn't the lawyers who are screwing up this country's legal system all by themselves....it's a lot of CITIZENS, more than willing to sue anyone for anything at the drop of a hat. It takes two to tango....lawyers have to have clients.

I have rented airplanes off and on for 40 years and I've never felt like I was required to provide any personal information or assurances that weren't warranted and reasonable. I am not a real regular renter, though.

And, as noted, I carry non owned aircraft insurance. Not because some FBO wants me to...it's to protect ME in the event someone finds a lawyer and comes after ME.

It is all about ME after all....

MTV

MTV
The accident I am familiar with locally the pilot was spotting for hunting and couldn't out climb terrain in a 182 due to air movement down the ridge he was trying to out climb. Yes, he was low to spot game. Did he break any regulations? I don't think so. He had his attention outside the plane until it was too late to turn around. Bad judgment? You betcha. Poor planning, too. Lots of mistakes. But isn't that what insurance is for? The ins co. paid off the FBO and sued the pilot-who, incidentally, did a good job of setting it down and saving the passenger compartment and himself and his friend.
Mike, I could spend the morning going over specific examples that cause me to come to the conclusions I have come to. I agree the greedy people/plaintiffs are definitely part of the problem, but in our area the ambulance chases support a significant part of the media in the daytime with advertising for clients. I believe the chicken came before the egg-You have a right to your opinion.

As I said, I don't have the time, nor the inclination, to counter your post point by point, or justify my position where we see things differently. I hit a couple here just so you could see there are reasons for varying opinions. We all experience/get knocked around different ways in life, and all have reasons for our individual opinions.

So, congratulations, put 'one' in the win column.
Let us move on.
lc


Edit to correct spelling. I WAS in a hurry this morning........
Probably better than a long verbose explanation anyway.....

Not sure of their insurance request. FBO saying they want to know if the insurance company will insure you, should be insuring them.
Are they saying you will be the primary insured on the rental plane that they control? I can see the insurance company having minimum hours of PC both total and per year in type.
I would like to see the policy and a call to the company to ask questions, all so a check on the companies quality and reputation.
Never have had this type of request. Have been required to provide a copy of my own insurance listing any restriction and types insured which would be normal
and prudent on my part for my own safety.

Question about Non-owners insurance:

The plane doesn't have to be a rental right? Can be any plane you don't own?? I'm assuming you pay for whatever amount of coverage you feel like you need.

I might be selling my plane to build an experimental and want to still fly while I'm building. I may have access to a 210 and a 182 but the owners don't insure them so before I even think about using them I want to make sure I have insurance coverage.

At today's prices, you can buy a beater C150 for about what rental insurance would cost!

Gump

GumpAir wrote:At today's prices, you can buy a beater C150 for about what rental insurance would cost!

Gump

Not at all. Get some quotes.

MTV

I was just being a smart-ass!

But then again, payments for a 10K C150 are only a couple hundred bucks a month. Probably a whole lot more hours in the logbook for the buck than renting.

I know, I know... "If it flys, floats, or f**ks, it's cheaper to rent than buy."

Gump

whee wrote:Question about Non-owners insurance:

The plane doesn't have to be a rental right? Can be any plane you don't own?? I'm assuming you pay for whatever amount of coverage you feel like you need.

I might be selling my plane to build an experimental and want to still fly while I'm building. I may have access to a 210 and a 182 but the owners don't insure them so before I even think about using them I want to make sure I have insurance coverage.

I have AVEMCO renters insurance and I am covered when I fly my friends 170.

hicountry wrote:I haven't rented for many years but I do fly other planes once in a while. The policy I have for my plane makes me covered for any plane I fly up to the hull damage that I'm insured for on my own plane. *snip*

curious what ins co your with for that? I need to get a non-owned policy & that sounds like it fits my need better than a separate policy & premium. Liability also included or just hull?

So to follow up.....
I am now checked out in the airplane, a citabria adventure. Very fun plane, I am completing mountain flying training now and had my first flight to Leadville last week. Glenwood springs and aspen this weekend.

On the insurance, their company agreed to cut their minimums in half. I met the minimums on my first mountain flight with the exception of crosswind landings which I flew up to cheyanne, WY to get them all in. So, I can rent the plane now. It is still unclear to me whose insurance covers the plane if I pack it in. I will discuss further with them next week to get a better understanding. I am just glad to be flying.

I really think that the FBO was just watching out for themselves, didnt like the idea of a punk from NY with under 100hrs and a month old ppl renting their fancy tailwheel plane. I can understand this and know the instructor would not have checked me out if he was not confident in my capabilities.... all my hrs in a j3 paid off haha

karbonkid wrote:didnt like the idea of a punk from NY with under 100hrs and a month old ppl renting their fancy tailwheel plane.

I can't blame them. There are countless accidents that start just like that.

Last year I was renting a nice 7EC that some friend of the owner was briefly checked out in, then on the very next flight (his first solo in the aircraft only minutes later) reacted to an impending ground loop with full power/go around, and stuffed it into the roof of a house off the end of rwy 35 at KUAO. I wasn't out a dime, but I'd still like to strangle him.