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Minimum Radius Turns

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Minimum Radius Turns

Since it's snowing out and I can't fly, I thought this new topic could generate some heat :wink:

How do you make a 180 degree turn with the shortest radius in a level flight situation?

How do you do it in a canyon?

How do you make a 180 with NO lateral radius at all?

What would YOU do if you came around a corner low and slow in a Canyon and had to turn RIGHT NOW? (no time to think or re-position)

Let's hear from our combined experience of several hundred thousand hours!

Rocky
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Here's my version, from Plane and Pilot Magazine, December 2006 issue:

Box Canyon Hazards
Beyond mountains, airspace restrictions & tall buildings can also define tight spots

By Michael Vivion

The visibility isn’t the best going up the mountain pass. On the far side lies better weather and home. Behind are a tent, camp, cold and wet weather, and insufficient gas to go elsewhere. The pilot continues deeper into the pass, hoping conditions will improve. The ceiling is steady, but the terrain is rising. They’re headed south, and winds are westerly at 20 knots, with gusts. The pilot hugs the right side of the pass for traffic.

Suddenly, clouds obscure the rising terrain, and it’s obvious he isn’t going to make it through the pass. It’s time to turn around, but the opposite canyon wall looks awfully close. The aircraft’s vertical fin is already in the clouds, and the surrounding terrain is much higher—climbing isn’t an option. Neither is a descent. From cruise configuration, the pilot initiates a hard left turn, banking 45 degrees in an imitation of a check ride aced years ago. Unfortunately, the aircraft has just turned into a tailwind.

Two days later, searchers find the remains of the aircraft near the top of the pass. The wreckage pattern leads downhill, on a northerly heading. The NTSB accident database is littered with stories of pilots who failed to turn around in the space available to them.

Years ago, I was introduced to the de Havilland Beaver by Jack Corey. I remember most of the information conveyed to me during the checkout, but two topics stand out. The first is a flight regime that has destroyed many de Havilland aircraft: operation in the region of reverse command, or flying on the back side of the power curve. The other lesson, repeated until it was second nature, involved turning the Beaver around in a tight spot. With Corey growling at me from the right seat, I turned again and again in airspace I would have thought only a helicopter could work in. Years later, the lessons learned that day likely saved my life and the life of my passenger.

It’s important to be aware that not all box canyons are found in the mountains. High-rise buildings and metropolitan areas may rise above a VFR flight corridor, such as in New York City’s East River. Airspace restrictions may also create a virtual box as well—in those cases, I’d rather maneuver safely and risk facing an entire team of FAA lawyers.

The weather doesn’t have to be bad for things to go awry—many incidents occur on sight-seeing flights in VFR conditions. Either way, know any canyon very well before venturing into it. You can fly above the canyon to discern whether there are any new obstructions, such as wires or towers that you’re unfamiliar with.

No matter what the scenario or aircraft, there are several key factors that will help you turn around in minimum airspace.

Before The Turn
First and foremost, slow down before you get into a tight spot. Because airspeed and bank angle dictate the radius of a turn, slower speeds and/or steeper bank angles will result in a tighter turn. Many pilots wait until they’re actually starting the turn to slow down—that’s too late. What speed should you target? I use 1.3 Vso initially. Practicing turns with slight variations in speed helps find the best speed for your airplane. Don’t forget that stall speed varies with weight, and adjust accordingly.

Configure the airplane for the turn before you initiate the turn. This will vary from aircraft to aircraft, but look for the configuration that offers the best tradeoff between lift and drag. Most airplanes will warrant a flap setting at about half deflection, but some aircraft turn tighter with full flaps, so practice at altitude until you find the best configuration for your aircraft.

Wind direction is the most important consideration in determining which side of the canyon to hug while proceeding up canyon. If you’re flying south with a westerly wind, as described in the scenario above, starting the turn from the east side of the canyon provides a headwind as you turn across the canyon. If there’s a lot of wind, there may be downdrafts on the west side of the canyon. But remember, the radius of the turn is a function of speed over the ground. If you cross the canyon with a tailwind, your best effort may not be good enough.

Practice the procedure for minimum radius turns repeatedly at altitude so that the maneuver becomes second nature. When you’re looking at sheer rock walls through the windshield, you need to have confidence and competence in your technique. A GPS will help evaluate your turn radius during practice.

Everything described to this point must be done before you initiate that lifesaving turn. Slow down, configure, move to the wall that offers the best starting point, and practice. Preparation is the key to success.

During The Turn
Let’s revisit our scenario: Clouds immediately above—can’t go up. Rocks below—can’t go down. What’s the best strategy to get turned around?

Pose this question to a dozen pilots, and you’ll hear as many answers. Some advocate a chandelle—a climbing turn at the conclusion of which you should be within a couple knots of stall speed. In our scenario, we can’t climb and we don’t want to be so close to stall speed in the mountains and turbulence.

Others suggest a diving turn. But we’ve continued to descend as we’ve gotten deeper into this deal—to the point where we can no longer descend. Furthermore, a descent suggests more speed, and speed equates to a larger turn radius.

The technique I use has worked in the light aircraft I’ve flown, including that harridan of canyon turns—the Beaver.

Here’s the technique, as I’d perform it in a Cessna 172:

Slow down and configure the airplane before you get to the tight spot: 70 mph and flaps set to 20 degrees. Depending on the operating weight, 70 knots is a little over 1.3 Vso.

When the airplane is trimmed, roll smoothly into a steep, coordinated turn. This doesn’t have to be a maximum-rate roll—steady and smooth works here.

As you pass 30 degrees of bank, apply full power, and up-elevator to initiate the turn. Continue the roll to 50 degrees of bank. With practice, you’ll find a pitch attitude (generally a little higher than cruise attitude) that will maintain altitude. The idea here is to turn with minimum radius, while holding altitude. Keep pulling hard as the airplane turns, and at the 180-degree point perform a smooth rollout and power reduction.

The airplane should come around as if on rails. If it buffets a little in the turn, back off the pull just a tad. With full power, the airplane will tolerate a lot before it stalls. Practice at altitude to perfect the technique and to determine how much pull it takes. And remember, in actual practice, this is a last-ditch lifesaving maneuver. Done well, the airplane will finish at the same altitude that you entered the turn. Practice the maneuver until you nail the altitude every time.

All aircraft—from basic trainers to taildraggers to high-performance models—can get into trouble with box canyons. With each aircraft, the flap setting and target airspeed may be different, but the basic technique is the same.

So, remember, practice turning around till you have the technique down pat. Should you anticipate a tight spot ahead, slow the airplane down and configure it for a turn. Most times, you’ll get through the pass just fine. Flying slow with flaps will take a little longer, but should the space close in on you, reduced airspeed and bank will get you out of there in one piece.



Virtual Box Canyons

Mountain walls aren’t required to form a box canyon, as was evidenced by the October 2006 accident involving New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor, Tyler Stanger. Sightseeing over New York’s East River, the two pilots flew within a narrow VFR corridor, surrounded by LaGuardia Airport’s Class B airspace. These limitations defined an invisible, but potentially hazardous, box canyon.

Within confined areas, it’s always preferable to make any necessary turns into the wind. At the time of Lidle and Stanger’s flight, winds were recorded at 095 degrees at 13 knots. As reported by the NTSB, radar data showed their aircraft entering a 180-degree turn to the west—downwind—to avoid bravo airspace. The easterly tailwind would have reduced the airspace available for turning by 400 feet. Prior to the turn, the aircraft had been positioned approximately mid-river, and as such couldn’t take advantage of the entire width of the corridor, further reducing maneuvering space.

NTSB reports suggest that if the aircraft hadn’t banked steeply at 53 degrees upon commencing the turn, even greater bank angles would have been required throughout the turn, making a stall a possibility. All of these factors may have contributed to the aircraft’s crash into a Manhattan high-rise building.

Radar tracks of the aircraft’s path over New York’s East River can be viewed at http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/ N929CD_final_turn_3radars.pdf.

MTV
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The Chandelle does work very well for a turn radius of two to three airplane widths if done correctly. It also takes more practice than the short radius turn MTV describes. The turn MTV describes is also a little easier to sell to a white knuckled passenger. ;-)

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RockyTFS:
"How do you make a 180 with NO lateral radius at all?"

Loop then roll :wink:
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N6EA,

A chandelle, by definition, concludes in a speed just above the stall speed of the airplane. That's not somewhere I care to be in a tight spot that may also be bumpy. Also, a chandelle involves a climb. I'm assuming that most of these deals are going to involve a cloud layer that precludes climbing. A chandelle, done according to the Practical Test Standards, is a large radius, very gradual turn. Anything else is not a chandelle.

Could you be more specific as to what you are calling a chandelle?

By the way, done properly, the maneuver I described will give most passengers the willy's too :lol: . It involves a pretty hard pull, a lot of bank, and a lot of power. The good news is it's over so fast they can't get too weird on you :? .

MTV
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mtv wrote:N6EA,

A chandelle, by definition, concludes in a speed just above the stall speed of the airplane. That's not somewhere I care to be in a tight spot that may also be bumpy. Also, a chandelle involves a climb. I'm assuming that most of these deals are going to involve a cloud layer that precludes climbing. A chandelle, done according to the Practical Test Standards, is a large radius, very gradual turn. Anything else is not a chandelle.

Could you be more specific as to what you are calling a chandelle?

By the way, done properly, the maneuver I described will give most passengers the willy's too :lol: . It involves a pretty hard pull, a lot of bank, and a lot of power. The good news is it's over so fast they can't get too weird on you :? .

MTV


I guess it's not a "Chandelle" in the classic text book sense but it's about as close a description as I know. (Maybe there is another name) It involves full power and almost a departure type stall attitude with a rudder turn at the top (gotta' be careful not to completely stall the inside wing) recovery with enough power to keep airspeed under control while trying to minimize loss of altitude in the recovery. Done correctly you can recover at nearly the same altitude as you started and within a couple airplane widths. I agree a cloud layer above would prohibit this type of manuever and also it not the kind of thing you want to attempt without some instruction. Also, if as is usually the case, most people might have already bled off what airspeed they had in attempt to climb out of their situation and with no airspeed or altitude to work with your short radius turn is really their only out.

Putting somebody's butt deep into the seat with a couple of g's turn does have the effect of givin' them the willy's that's for sure. ;-)

Mark
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I believe the turn is called a whip stall. it turns you around real short, gains some altitude, but deadly with a low ceiling.
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Marc,

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous
But to an even greater degree than the sea,
it is terribly unforgiving of any
carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

BabyGreatLakes wrote:I believe the turn is called a whip stall. it turns you around real short, gains some altitude, but deadly with a low ceiling.


It looks like whip stall is one name and maybe vertical reverse also.

Anyway it works pretty well if you have the vertical room. Of course, so would a split S :shock: :lol:

Mark
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Sounds more like a hammerhead turn to me...it would work great if you have the altitude to work with and were familiar with the maneuver, but could cause some problems if either of the previous mentioned items are not present.

Image


Personally when faced with that situation I hit the ALT key followed by selecting the WORLD tab, rotate the heading 180 degrees and then resume the game. It works great. \:D/
Last edited by lowflybye on Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Minimum Radius Turns

RockyTFS wrote:...How do you make a 180 degree turn with the shortest radius in a level flight situation?

How do you do it in a canyon?

What would YOU do if you came around a corner low and slow in a Canyon and had to turn RIGHT NOW? (no time to think or re-position)


Establish speed of 1.3-1.7 VSO, pull in full flaps, roll in 45 and apply full power, pull as necessary to maintain level flight, coordinated roll out after 180. Banking more than 45-50 degrees gives up any lower turn radius advantage to higher wing loading and higher sink rates. Using 45 degrees as a target gives you a little room for error under pressure. Pulling on full flaps changes the angle of incidence of the wing helping to unload it during the turn and speeds up the rate of the turn. It all happens very, very, fast, pretty much the way Mike describes it. If you are already slow (which you probably should be if you're below the canyon rim) you can leave out the first part. Initiate the turn from the canyon wall not the center. Also, try to be conscious of the wind direction and use it to your advantage as Mike stated above; but one thing you need to remember is: if you're flying in the canyons in the morning or evening like you should, the wind is often blowing up or down the canyon because of diurnal air flow, not across it. Doing this maneuver at the bottom of the stated speed range increases the chance of an accelerated stall and you need to be very wary of it.

I think there's something subtly different about the way Lori teaches the turn but I'm having a brain cramp at the moment that's inhibiting my memory. Edit: I think she teaches the maneuver with less bank angle than I'm describing - but bank angle could be a variable dependent on entry speed.

How do you make a 180 with NO lateral radius at all?
Rocky


That would be an Immelmann turn, but you better have the required energy to pull it off or you're gonna find yourself in the trees when you go knife edge at the top.
Image
Last edited by Strata Rocketeer on Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lowflybye wrote: ...................
Personally when faced with that situation I hit the ALT key followed by selecting the WORLD tab, rotate the heading 180 degrees and then resume the game. It works great. \:D/


I like that easy button on the TV ads..... :wink:

I got myself into one of those up-canyon shows once, years ago. I was real low time, so it probably wasn't all that bad a situation, but it sure got my heart a-pumpin' ! I used a half-flaps climbing turn at Vx, at a wide spot where another creek joined the drainage I was in. Turns out I had plenty of room to spare.
How about a regular 30' or so banked turn in slow flight mode? When practising that as a student I remember the turn radius seemed waay small. Not too good to be that close to stall speed if thermals/wind/etc are banging ya around I guess, but otherwise.....?

Eric
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MTV and Strata have indicated the preferred method taught by McCall Aviation in their canyon flying seminars. It DOES need re-current practice because as Strata says it happens VERY fast and you don't have time to look at the AI to get the bank right. This is a manoeuver done mostly by feel.

I had in mind three possibilities for a NO radius turn:
An Immelmann (not possible below cruise speed in our planes)

A Hammerhead stall (not something I would ever do at 300 AGL, and also not possible below cruise)

A half turn spin (again not practical)

I left out the split S for obvious reasons

There is another alternative that is possible with practice, and that is a wingover, defined as a climbing then descending 180 degree turn without stalling or unco-ordinated flight. When done right, it is a gentle manoeuver unloading the plane to about 1/4 G at the apex, with bank angles in the 45 degree range but lots of rudder, and will produce very short diameters, about 1/2 to 1/4 that of a level turn. Works much better to the left. That's one of the reasons I would always fly to the right side of canyons. If you've never done one, get an acro instructor and learn it! If done in a real canyon, it would be modified into about a 200 degree turn to avoid accelerating much until you were pointed away from the opposite wall.

For those with a hankering for a more technical explanation of minimum radius turns with a neat graph I would go to:

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamic ... adius.html

Next we will investigate the effects of wind on such a turn!

Regards,

Rocky
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RockyTFS wrote:A Hammerhead stall (not something I would ever do at 300 AGL, and also not possible below cruise)


Something I learned during my aerobatic course is that a Hammerhead maneuver is not actually a stall. You maintain enough airspeed thru the turn to kick it around at the top with the rudder. If you DO stall, it can then become a whip stall...with possible tail slide, which is what I think most people imagine when they hear "hammerhead."

This is a great thread, everybody.
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Rocky,

A wing over ain't exactly a zero lateral radius turn, it's dang close, but it does have a lateral radius.

A wing over is an excellent tool for reversal when soaring a narrow band of lift along a ridge...plus it's a whole lotta fun!

One other thing about canyon flying that often gets overlooked. The sunny side of the canyon is often a source of rising air, while the shady side of the canyon is usually doing the exact opposite. One more reason to avoid them, or at the very least be aware of the airmass dynamics during the heat of the day.
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Hey Strata,

You're right about wingovers not being zero radius but I wanted to add that manoeuver to the thread.

Why is it that all glider pilots know what a wingover is and most power pilots have never heard of it? Do you think it's because they don't get to enjoy that sublime moment of absolute silence at the top of the manoeuver?

rocky :lol:
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:o :shock: :) :D 8)
Image

A little more than a chandelle and not really a hammerhead, except the attitude at the top...notice the yaw string.
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Ah yes, I spent many hours in the back seat of a Blanik...

I found another web page with a similar discussion of steep turns:

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/sape/pilotage/Hudson/steepturns.html

It has a good discussion of the wind's influence on turn diameter.

Another thought about turns in canyons is that rising air will start on the morning sun side about two hours after sunrise. If you want to do a 180 you would want to start the turn from that side, which would allow you to gain some altitude while in the first half of the turn and lose it (or maybe not) in the second half. It is also true that turns at steep bank angles close to rocks are more comfortable in rising air, at least in lightly wing loaded airplanes. I will usually try to fly along the sunny side of any canyon or range up until about 10 am, by which time the effects of upper winds and thermal turbulence tend to negate this effect. It's often good for an extra 100-200 fpm of climb.

Rocky
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On the subject of Mountain Flying. Have any of you taken the online Mountain Flying Program from AOPA? I sat down one rainy Saturday and did the Mountain Flying Program, The VFR GPS Program and the Airspace Program just to tune up for a BFR and well, it was raining. The Mountain Flying Program was pretty basic stuff but as with most of the AOPA programs it was sorta' multi-format and at one point there was a drill that you could go through to do a turn in a canyon at different speeds and you had to start the turn quickly and at one of the lowest selectable speeds to stay off the rocks on the far side of the canyon. At another point in the program you rode along from the back seat as some trees and terrain out climb a skyhawk if I remember correctly. The real life video ends as the skyhawk clips some trees and goes down. There is also audio and the frantic admission from the pilot "we aren't going to make it" or something to that effect. A rather sobering video that is actually a bit disturbing but I guess that's the point...

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Strata Rocketeer wrote::o :shock: :) :D 8)
Image

A little more than a chandelle and not really a hammerhead, except the attitude at the top...notice the yaw string.


Doug,

See, there's the problem and why I can't get into soaring. I just don't look good in those hats.. ;-)

Mark
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N6EA wrote: ..See, there's the problem and why I can't get into soaring. I just don't look good in those hats.. ;-) Mark


Where's all the fishing lures?
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