robw56 wrote: ....I'm running foreflight on an IPad mini and iPhone 6+ linked to a Stratus 2s. I also have a Garmin 496.......
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Rob, it seems like you have quite a bit of redundancy (some might call it duplication). I'm curious as to your thinking behind your choices of devices. I'm thinking of modernizing and need to get a handle on this modern whizbang stuff, which ain't easy since as you can probably tell I'm a bit of a Luddite. My current nav is a Garmin 196 which I've had for about 7 years, before that was a Garmin Pilot 3 which I had for about 10 years, before that was pilotage or VOR. A guy I know has a Samsung Galaxy pad (which I guess is an Android device) running Avare, which he thinks is great. Other guys I know have ipads and/or smartphones which run foreflight garmin or jeppesen apps. I'd like to keep costs down to a minimum and not sure which is the most cost-effective way to go. Any advice?

7500

iPADs are hard to read in direct Sunlight. I know my "Air" is. Garmin has brighter not necessarily better screens.

iPADs are, however, here to stay (with ForeFlight). I fly with it everywhere. Unreal technology.

1200

I have to agree...the iPad and Foreflight combo is really the way to go. Since doing my IR, I have seen how incredible the combo is for flight planning and managing information during the flight. I have never had any issues with screen brightness and seeing the screen in the cockpit.

Even Garmin appeared to throw out the white flag when they made Foreflight compatible with their streaming system to upload flight plans into Garmin electronics.

I think that there are some folks out there who resist apple products, including me at first, but the combo is really too good to not use. I think that Foreflight will outlast the other electronic flight bags out there. It is really the industry standard to which other systems are compared to.

My other recommendations would be to get the largest storage iPad you can get (at least 64GB), the iPad mini is a more usable size in the cockpit, and get the one with cellular data + wi-fi capability (for the gps).

I have never used the Stratus linked into Foreflight, but from Rob's post, it sure seems beneficial. Weather, traffic, etc.

I use an ipad with foreflight too, but I'd never fly IFR without paper as my primary. Good as they are, ipads are quirky enough that staking your life on them is a fools move.

Hammer wrote:I use an ipad with foreflight too, but I'd never fly IFR without paper as my primary. Good as they are, ipads are quirky enough that staking your life on them is a fools move.

I agree. Very fun and effective but NOT 100% reliable. IFR requires much more.

The best thing about Foreflight on an iPad is the realtime wx from the cellular internet connection, or ADB-S WX receiver. Garmin had the satellite weather for years but it's just not quite as good when you're sitting somewhere away from the aircraft flight planning. On Foreflight you can have the latest winds, dial in your route and get a pretty amazing and wind-accurate navlog.

I was an early adopter of Foreflight but at some point I just lost my interest in it-- I think it had to do mostly with the heft of my iPad 2, and I really don't like have kneeboards or anything attached to the yoke. My 496 though, that thing is eternal. And I usually carry paper.

Ask yourself if you're just curious about gadgets and afraid you're missing out on something, or if you really need a comprehensive flight planning solution. The nice thing about buying an iPad is that you can also read the news on the toilet even if you lost interest in using it in the cockpit.

I've had one Android tablet and I was disappointed. It was a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2. It was just underpowered and at the time the flight planning/nav apps available weren't that good.

IPAD + Verizon 4G cellular data is a match made in Heaven. Add a GARMIN 39 GDL 3D (+Garmin Pilot App) and it is really useful (ADSB, synthetic horizon).

An iPAD usefulness is analogous to the E6B wiz-wheel. I can't imagine teaching a student not owning an iPAD and ForeFlight. My mind works around the iPAD now and it's safe and effective IF the known limitations are understood. But, a wet compass and paper/pencil are still a good thing to stay proficient in.

Note: GARMIN 39 GDL 3D synthetic horizon is Beta! Needs more development.

A bit more upscale but a word of warning on the Garmin 750.
We found out the hard way there is a catch that is not in the literature, avionics shops don't know about it and even the Garmin response line took 2 weeks to track it down.

Outside of WAAS airspace: The 750 does not input BARO information so it de-selects VNAV on LNAV-VNAV approaches. All other functions except approach loading are fine. Approach loading is a round about FUBAR, I don't know who thought it up but it is a well known head scratcher.

I agree with the above posts in using an Ipad mini and Foreflight.

I also have Wing X Pro, because its free to flight instructors, I see a couple of features I like that Foreflight does not have but overall Foreflight is the winner hands down. I have used the standard Ipad and now have the mini and it is the way to go by far. It is very important, as mentioned, to get the one with cellular capability as it has GPS and the non cell does not.
One thing that is VERY nice is the ability to get updates while in the air if you have a cellular data connection. This allows you to see wx radar, update the map and winds, etc. There are two issues here though. The first, and there maybe a solution but I have not found it, it that cellular connection for data does not work much above 3-4000 feet. The cell towers are designed to concentrate there energy like a donut and not waste signal going up in the air. The other is that you need a cellular connection for your Ipad. When I started this a few years ago my carrier, AT&T charged something like $30/mo for this feature. I called them on this 6 months ago and the agent informed me there was no to add the ipad for data usage. What you can do is set you iphone up as a wifi hotspot so as to get date from it to the ipad at no additional cost. I have found it works great. I am not sure what the other carriers offer in this regard so best check it out.

Just my 3 cents worth

Tom

Hammer wrote:I use an ipad with foreflight too, but I'd never fly IFR without paper as my primary. Good as they are, ipads are quirky enough that staking your life on them is a fools move.

I definitely agree with that. I always print out required materials for the flight. I know people that are no longer buying paper charts, but I can't quite bring myself to go that far yet. Many people, including my CFII, uses an iPad mini as primary and uses an iPhone 6 Plus as a back up. I have found that the paper materials to augment the iPad is a great way to stay ahead of curve and not have to shuffle back and forth between pages on the iPad.

Sorry...I didn't want to restart the IFR debate into this thread also.

Particularly applicable to hotrod180's original post and a question that I have wondered myself...

As best as I can tell from hotrod180's original post, he is asking about modern nav choices (and based on his comments from the "new panel" thread, not IFR-certified, panel mounted stuff like Garmin 430s/650s/750s, etc). So taking the panel mounted avionics out of the equation, it basically narrows down the discussion to handhelds like the iPad and Garmin 696/796 series. Or is there something out there that I am missing? Maybe some of the lower cost Garmin handhelds, but I am not sure if they are a good comparison to the iPad?

What are the advantages of the Garmin 696/796 series over that of the an iPad with Foreflight? I am pretty familiar with all of the bells and whistles of Foreflight, but not the Garmin handhelds.

All-in prices to have comparable systems including ADS-B Out, in-flight weather, etc.:
iPad - $500, Stratus - $900, Foreflight - $180 (pro w/ SVT) - $1580
Garmin 796 - $1700, GDL-39 - $600 - $2300

JB

Zzz wrote:....Ask yourself if you're just curious about gadgets and afraid you're missing out on something, or if you really need a comprehensive flight planning solution. The nice thing about buying an iPad is that you can also read the news on the toilet even if you lost interest in using it in the cockpit......

Just curious I guess. My G196 has yet to mis-navigate me anywhere. I had the database updated last summer to incorporate the Seattle area class B airspace changes from a couple years ago, so along with the updated airport info I'm good to go. There's a couple reasons I might upgrade-- first of all, it'd be nice to have a sectional-based moving map display, the Garmin is just a map with airspace boundaries added. Secondly, it'd be awesome to have real time weather -- not a big deal around the local area, but invaluable for trips. Ditto real-time TFR alerts.

The getting the latest news on the toilet thing isn't too much of a consideration. I spend too much time on the damn internet at home-- I don't wanna get into doing that away from home too. This is why I don't have a smartphone. I do have a laptop, which is portable but bulky enough where I don't pack it around all the time unless I think I'll need it. In between wi-fi and my wireless internet gizmo, the laptop'll do for pitstop updates on a trip, but access to real-time information in-flight is pretty attractive.

My Alaska trip JUN-2015 time allocation (my first trip):

95 % Planning on the iPAD, PC, reading
05% Actually flying

If I want a good flight, I plan for a good flight. The iPAD is paramount.

Mojave Flyer wrote:
What are the advantages of the Garmin 696/796 series over that of the an iPad with Foreflight? I am pretty familiar with all of the bells and whistles of Foreflight, but not the Garmin handhelds.

JB

The biggest advantage of the Garmin is satellite Wx, which of course you get to pay extra for. Most of where I fly has no cellular coverage, thus no weather on the ipad. Getting back to the plane after a five day backpacking trip and being able to pull up tomorrow's weather for the 500~700 mile flight home is well worth the money to me. Being able to watch the storm cells develop while slogging across the Great Basin (again, no cell service for about three hours) is more than just nice...it's often what allows me to make the flight.

There are a few dead areas in the western US that are without radar coverage, and a few more where it seems to work poorly at best, but it's a much better system for backcountry flying than foreflight. Perhaps because of how it's mounted in the airplane, the Garmin also has a better GPS connection than the ipad.

Right now I pay for both satellite weather on the Garmin and cellular service on the ipad. If I choose to give one up it'll be the ipad.

Incidentally I recently lost satellite Wx capability on my Garmin 696. I called Garmin, and they were as helpful as a bucket of mud. "It could be the antenna or the GPS." Wow...really? The prices quoted to trouble shoot it were in the hundreds of dollars, each. Luckily a friend had an antenna he no longer uses and gave it to me...fixed the problem. A new antenna is $700, by the way.

XM weather! That makes sense now. The Stratus and GDL-39 get their data through the ADS-B network which has limited coverage. That explains the value of the Garmin and why I see them build into the updated panels of many of the folks on here.

Thx for the explanation Hammer.

I am a highly trained computer and navigation specialist:

If a unit is broken I promptly throw into the "electrical component recycle bin" and order the latest model and software upgrades on the Internet. Shipping it UPS ground.

Nah, Asia is not "dumping products"*. They help Americans have a better life.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)

Mojave Flyer wrote:...As best as I can tell from hotrod180's original post, he is asking about modern nav choices (and based on his comments from the "new panel" thread, not IFR-certified, panel mounted stuff like Garmin 430s/650s/750s, etc). So taking the panel mounted avionics out of the equation, it basically narrows down the discussion to handhelds like the iPad ...

Correct, I guess I'm specifically asking about pad (ipad, android, or whatever else there is), and moving map / GPS / weather info apps and/or programs. I'm sure the salesmen at Bst Buy can fill me in on the basic devices, but not on the aviation apps and how well they all work together.

The Garmin 696 is BY FAR the best money I've spent on the panel. Nothing else will give that much information for the price if you're flying outside of cell or adsb service. Wx is about a dollar a day, more if you also want satellite radio.

HotRod,

My stash:

QTY:

(1) Garmin 496,
(2) iPADS,
(1) PC ( video etc)
(1) GLD 39

My gig:

1) Planning on iPAD with Verizon data, file VFR

2) Enter waypoints into Garmin 496

3) Fly Garmin waypoints (iPADs are used as a backup, one ForeFlight, one GARMIN Pilot [ADSB, synthetic "horizon"])

4) Download KLM file(ForeFlight website) , GoPro, data, etc

5) Close flight plan on iPAD or cellular telephone

If I had only 1 of 4 above it's the GARMIN, but that's hopefully not going to happen

Disclaimer: I am not a gadgets guy, just trying to be safe!

I'm curious what you guys like so much about the G496 that you would choose it over the newer-fangled ipad type stuff?