Several years ago this was released by Lycoming...

Lycoming quoted (see link below):

Yes, Lycoming approved automotive gasoline - "mogas" - on several 360 engine models - and we did not splash the news out in a press release.

Full story:
https://www.lycoming.com/content/unleaded-fuels-part-1

8GCBC wrote:Several years ago this was released by Lycoming...

Lycoming quoted (see link below):

Yes, Lycoming approved automotive gasoline - "mogas" - on several 360 engine models - and we did not splash the news out in a press release.

Full story:
https://www.lycoming.com/content/unleaded-fuels-part-1

Interesting article. Can anyone interpret the criteria for GOOD Mogas? No E is probably clear enough if we accep plain English..., but the other three criteria are as fuzzy "high crimes" and other impeachable offenses.

">>93 AKI for detonation margin (hot day OAT and 500F cylinder heads).
>>Vapor pressure Class A-4 to prevent vapor lock.
>>No ethanol and maximum 1% oxygenates.
>>ASTM D4814 Revision 09b and EN228 Revision 2008:E."

Value of the airplane and financial situation of the operator has a lot to do with it. I never put other than local gas station gas in O-540s and R-985s. The most expensive Ag plane they were attached to was a $12,500 CallAir in 1994. The $10,000 Stearman with recent Aero rebuilt Pratt in 1981 is probably worth more now.

PapernScissors wrote:

8GCBC wrote:Several years ago this was released by Lycoming...

Lycoming quoted (see link below):

Yes, Lycoming approved automotive gasoline - "mogas" - on several 360 engine models - and we did not splash the news out in a press release.

Full story:
https://www.lycoming.com/content/unleaded-fuels-part-1

Interesting article. Can anyone interpret the criteria for GOOD Mogas? No E is probably clear enough if we accep plain English..., but the other three criteria are as fuzzy "high crimes" and other impeachable offenses.

">>93 AKI for detonation margin (hot day OAT and 500F cylinder heads).
>>Vapor pressure Class A-4 to prevent vapor lock.
>>No ethanol and maximum 1% oxygenates.
>>ASTM D4814 Revision 09b and EN228 Revision 2008:E."

Well I can't...and even if I could I don't think it would matter unless I could test each batch of mo-gas prior to putting it in my airplane. I'm not knocking (pun ) people who run on mo-gas, but it just doesn't have any of the quality controls that av-gas has.

If a distributor wanted to treat mo-gas like av-gas, with all the same controls and accountability then that would be great, though I don't know if it would end up being any cheaper. But filling up at the corner Stinker Station is a total crap shoot.

Gas, oil, and filters are good places to not cut corners. Another $10 per hour for good fuel is negligible in the big picture of aircraft ownership.

Agreed, I simply have no faith or trust in the retail fuel supply. Therefore, I certainly believe road gas should be used with caution and Lycoming is not giving a blank check either.

Robinson sells 70% overseas and the authorities, in that marketplace, distain leaded fuels. Here is a page from my R44 (O540-F1B5) Cadet POH, serial # 30042. To keep the sales flowing in foreign jurisdictions there are “Unleaded” fuel specifications. It’s a first step:


Again, the “Unknowns of MoGas” and related STC specifications are too much overhead for me to justify. I’m running at about $300-400 per hour, and feel lucky enough. I have 100LL within all my areas of operation and laziness precluded me from looking further.

Now, the whole reason I’m writing this is because I’m hoping unleaded will be offered in a more secure fashion at some point to us!

I known one thing only — lead is not needed or desired by many folks. Thank you Lycoming and Robinson for taking first steps to resolve the issue. We are not there yet but, FAA unleaded fuel at airports may happen one day in future generations. BTW Lebanon, Oregon has MoGas pump next to the AvGas, very easy to purchase http://www.airnav.com/airport/S30 .

Mahalo for commenting on the thread!

We run premium no-lead in the Rotax. After looking at the innards of one of those run on 100LL and then MOGAS I’ll manage the risk towards the latter. No corn squeezin’s in Alaska gas, we save that stuff for happy hour.

There needs to be a tighter controlled supply of no-lead for the engines that need the high test AVGAS. Hopefully with more drones flying something will come along.

gbflyer wrote:We run premium no-lead in the Rotax. After looking at the innards of one of those run on 100LL and then MOGAS I’ll manage the risk towards the latter. No corn squeezin’s in Alaska gas, we save that stuff for happy hour.

There needs to be a tighter controlled supply of no-lead for the engines that need the high test AVGAS. Hopefully with more drones flying something will come along.

Justin, thank you AGAIN for the FREE unleaded fueling of the Scout during my Alaska stay. The 8GCBC loved burning unleaded. It was legal too, the (2) Peterson STCs covered the engine and airframe.

I wish the FAA would legislate a “Basic unleaded” specification using road gas. Similar to “Basic Medicals” for humans. Then we would not have to spend $500 for (2) placards and a sheet of paper. If, choosing unleaded on legacy ships.

There was a lawsuit in Hawaii by the very small minority marine community over E10 at marinas. The boaters won and all (3) marina gas pumps now serve E0. Yes, there are only three pumps on Oahu with E0! But, that’s OK. My aluminum tanks in the moist marine environment are zero corrosion compared to E10 ships that were eaten alive by alcohol and water!

Another victory in the gas debacle.

Aloha!

Hammer wrote:Gas, oil, and filters are good places to not cut corners. Another $10 per hour for good fuel is negligible in the big picture of aircraft ownership.

Bah! What's the worst that could happen?

If the different molecules burn and the octane is what it says it is, can you explain how aviation gas molecules are so much better? By the way, I know of an O470 that has been burning 87 or 89 oct E10 for the last 13 yrs and compressions are still in the mid/high 70's. Like I said before, two things come up the pipeline to my area------84 and 91 octane. I assume the same molecules aren't necessarily in either all the time. We have summer and winter. The AvGas at the airport might be in the tank for a long, long time and doesn't care about seasons.

We had an airplane crash into Mount Walker a few years ago in IMC.
I heard he was running mogas.

8GCBC wrote:

gbflyer wrote:We run premium no-lead in the Rotax. After looking at the innards of one of those run on 100LL and then MOGAS I’ll manage the risk towards the latter. No corn squeezin’s in Alaska gas, we save that stuff for happy hour.

There needs to be a tighter controlled supply of no-lead for the engines that need the high test AVGAS. Hopefully with more drones flying something will come along.

Justin, thank you AGAIN for the FREE unleaded fueling of the Scout during my Alaska stay. The 8GCBC loved burning unleaded. It was legal too, the (2) Peterson STCs covered the engine and airframe.

I wish the FAA would legislate a “Basic unleaded” specification using road gas. Similar to “Basic Medicals” for humans. Then we would not have to spend $500 for (2) placards and a sheet of paper. If, choosing unleaded on legacy ships.

There was a lawsuit in Hawaii by the very small minority marine community over E10 at marinas. The boaters won and all (3) marina gas pumps now serve E0. Yes, there are only three pumps on Oahu with E0! But, that’s OK. My aluminum tanks in the moist marine environment are zero corrosion compared to E10 ships that were eaten alive by alcohol and water!

Another victory in the gas debacle.

Aloha!

I don’t recall you escaping for free, Ted. You’re as good a guest as there is.

Hammer wrote:….If a distributor wanted to treat mo-gas like av-gas, with all the same controls and accountability then that would be great, though I don't know if it would end up being any cheaper. But filling up at the corner Stinker Station is a total crap shoot. ...

I've heard of several instances where 100LL was contaminated with JetA,
whether it was filling storage tanks at the airport or somewhere earlier in the distribution chain doesn't matter.
I seem to recall a big fuel distributor having to pay for some engine inspections / overhauls due to the latter.
I rarely hear about mogas being mixed up with diesel.
I run about 80% mogas & 20% avgas.
I test each batch of mogas for ethanol,
gives me a chance to see & smell what I bought.
Might be able to detect contamination at that point--who knows?
The avgas comes out of the nozzle & right into the tank--
If contaminated, when would it be detected?
FWIW I know of several airplanes that got 100LL with debris in it at a nearby airport,
evidently the fuel filter on the pump clogged or failed somehow & a big wad of crap went out the nozzle.

-0-

I’m not out of the supply equation either. User errors...

I was in Rainbow Beach, QLD Australia with my brand new Ford Turbo Diesel. And started to fill up with unleaded! Luckily I caught myself after about a liter. The truck ran great with a little gas mixed in! Never again, I told myself!

Also, I left a fuel cap off once.

I don’t run road gas in the R44. But, under “certain conditions” I could legally. It’s a first step.

Thank you folks for the input I agree 99.99% with comments posted.

Using MoGas vs 100L even blended can save enough money to pay for a complete overhaul at 2,000 hours. The amount of lead is 5 times the recommended amount for a 0320. With hardened valve seats the lead is no longer needed. Just things to think about.
DENNY

The economy of unleaded is undoubtedly a huge factor when flying a lot regularly. Also, I am more scared of the lead these days. I'm not alone.

In my situation I'm paying half for premium Mogas what I would for 100LL at the airport, that adds up fast, like I could overhaul almost twice as often if needed. The fact is though the engine is looking and running great with great compression numbers and I never foul anything up with lead either, I actually get a lot of comments from the AME about the cleanliness of the engine and the great compression numbers. To be fair some of that can be attributed to my plane actually getting flown regularly as opposed to most of the GA aircraft he sees.
I am testing my gas for ethanol and I'm running out of my own bulk tank so if there are issues they should usually show up in my cars and trucks before my plane.

We averaged 25 hours a week on pipeline Cessnas and ran only 100LL. Like Fraiser Farmer said, four times the lead. Every month was a 100 hr inspection, but they wouldn't make it to inspection without cleaning the lead off the plugs. 152 had the made for 100LL engine, but it was the worst. I liked the slower and lighter airplane for gathering systems, but I didn't like cleaning plugs every 50 hours.

Because the smaller engine was the worst, I thought it was because it wasn't running as hot, but I don't know. With a thousand tight energy management turns in a thousand acre oil patch, I didn't have time to look at the temp gauge.

Fraser Farmer wrote:In my situation I'm paying half for premium Mogas what I would for 100LL at the airport, that adds up fast, like I could overhaul almost twice as often if needed. The fact is though the engine is looking and running great with great compression numbers and I never foul anything up with lead either, I actually get a lot of comments from the AME about the cleanliness of the engine and the great compression numbers. To be fair some of that can be attributed to my plane actually getting flown regularly as opposed to most of the GA aircraft he sees.
I am testing my gas for ethanol and I'm running out of my own bulk tank so if there are issues they should usually show up in my cars and trucks before my plane.

Definitely you have a success story. I certainly disdain cleaning spark plugs! God has blessed you Sir! Thank you for the level minded post.