I am almost ready to put mogas in my M7. It is all STC for it. I searched the old threads on this and didn’t see the answer I am looking for. In Oregon has anyone gone through the process, or know about the process for getting the road tax off? Am I supposed to do some type of gov paper work and pay airplane gas tax? I want to do right by the gov. Cheers…Rob

I apply for mine at tax time, once per year. Keep the receipts and use the form, I do not remember the number and get your bucks back.

You are supposed to get the road tax back then pay the air tax. Just like on my ranch I am supposed to get the road tax back on gasoline used.

Is there any difference between the road and air tax and is it worth the paperwork. Especially when you go on a trip, you end up using avgass anyway unless you stop a Denio Juncion.

On the ranch I just use a bit of off road diesel to make up for the road tax. Er, ah, I am just thinking of that.

Tim

Where are you getting the gas from? I though in Oregon all the fuel had alcohol in it, so it is unusable for the STC. I have a C172 I thought about getting the STC for, but hauling 5 gallon cans would be a drag...

Rod

Rod:

I haul 5 gallon cans all the time. It's not that bad. Given the huge price difference between mogas and 100LL (about $1.60/gal), I don't mind the slight inconvenience.

Joe.

I could probably be convinced to carry cans, although I thought I had read that ALL fuel in Orygun had alcohol added to it. I could be wrong, but when I looked around everywhere says they use oxygenates ( alcohol ).

The leftward land of silliness....

Rod

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Right now road tax is twice aviation gas tax. That’s about .20 cents per gallon. If you do the paper work to get it off you better make sure to pay aviation tax or bad things could happen. Plus if I use the system I guess I should pay into it. I have been flying 2 hours a week that’s 104 hours a year with no trips. That’s 1300 gallons. If I burn 600 gallons of mogas in a year that is $120.00 in tax savings and at $1.00 per gallon less for mogas that is $600.00 That’s $720.00. I will be able to use mogas for all the local flying. That could be 6, 7, or 8 hundred gallons. From what I have read it sounds like when the temp gets around 80F avgas works better. I talked to the owner of my local Pacific Pride card lock, and he said that out side of Portland where I live they don’t put ethanol in the gas. Rod, I think in the Portland metro area they only put the methanol in during the winter. I think it is out now. Always check though! It looks like it pencils out. I have a big tank with an electric pump in the back of my truck so I won’t have to use the exploding cans. I have a Mr. Funnel and a filter on the pump. I should be in good shape. I never thought I would want a low compression engine until now. Cheers…Rob

I really like to keep the gov. paperwork with my name on it to a minimum. I fill up a 100 gal slip tank I keep in the back of my dodge when in Oregon. I check for ethanol every time and have found none.

I personally think that ethanol will not hurt an 0-470 or my 182B. The airframe can be stc'ed for 85% ethanol as it is. To put the 85 in an engine they take a high compression carbureted engine and make sure the carb float is plastic and jet out the carb. That is it plus a lot of superfluous paperwork.

I have burned a few tanks of California gas and you cannot tell the difference. Some will say what about vaporlock. In my hotrodding days with old flatheads, we noticed vaporlock and only on the suction side of the fuel pump. Looked everwhere and have yet to find a pump on a 182B. A few Model "A" Fords had that problem but only when they converted the updraft carb to a Stomberg 97 downdraft. An updraft Winfield carb never vaporlocked in an "A". I had two of them on mine with no pump.


Just my take.

Tim

Front end warning, use this map only as a clue as to whether ethanol is added in your area. The map is no guarantee. http://www.npradc.org/issues/fuels/stat ... ls_map.pdf
-- Mike

CA CBG in California. Do not know what that means but I know that in all of CA we have ethynol and in Souther Oregon they have none that I have detected.

Nice map.

Tim

I been getting a tax refund on cargas used in the airplane for years. Here in Washington, back 10 years ago or so it was around a dime a gallon. Last check I got (about a week ago) it was 3.3 cents per gallon. Hardly worth the trouble, but since it isn't that much trouble I just do it anyway. Get a free lunch every three months or so is the way I look at it.
The paperwork I get from the state sez you get the road tax refunded minus state/county sales tax. The numbers don't add up for that, so they must take an aviation tax out too. Most people apparently get refunds for gas used in farm equipment or boats.
The only outfit near me that seems t use gasahol is AM/PM (Arco). In the big city it may be different.
Rod, are you sure that oxygenates means alcohol? I thought that was like MTSB (?) which is used to increase volatility rate in wintertime.
Not only is cargas a buck or so cheaper than 100LL, my C-145 seems to like it better-- no clinkers in the plugs, no fouled plugs. I used to run 75/25% cargas/100LL per the Petersen STC recommendations, but since gas prices webt up so much the last couple years it's more like 95/5%.

Eric

All gasoline is oxygenated to increase its volatility and prevent that annoying engine knock.

http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/

Gasoline has been oxygenated with MTBE for years. But the powers that be have determined and decided that MTBE causes cancer when it gets into our water supply and animals like us drink it. Therefore MTBE has been outlawed in several states and the quickest alternative right now is ethanol.

Does that imply that ethanol plants are safe for the environment?

Alcohol absorbs water. Therefore the ethanol in gasoline will absorb available moisture. In cold climates, like here in North Dakota, this is a big advantage because in the winter time the ethanol carries the moisture thru the fuel system with the gasoline and out the exhaust. The alternative is to add a product like HEAT to the gas or let the moisture freeze your fuel system.

I prefer ethanol blended gas in my car in the winter and have never had icing problems.

Moisture in my airplanes fuel system scares the hell out of me and therefore at this time I don't want ethanol in the airplane. Carb ice is already a threat, so why increase the odds. I also wonder about long term storage, moisture and corrosion.

But, there are a few STCs available for ethanol in airplanes and ethanol is here to stay. We will eventually need to learn to use it in airplanes, burn 100LL or find a new fuel.

Bill

Moisture in my airplanes fuel system scares the hell out of me and therefore at this time I don't want ethanol in the airplane. Carb ice is already a threat, so why increase the odds. I also wonder about long term storage, moisture and corrosion.

I don't get what your saying here. Right before this sentence you stated that ethanol absorbs the water in the tank similar to the additive HEET and gets it through your engine. If anything, wouldn't ethanol decrease your odds of carb ice and corrosion because it eliminates bubbles of water mixed in with your gas?
All the gas in Missouri has ethanol mixed in. It's not required to post it at the pumps anymore so the filling stations are getting more bang for the buck. (cheap low octane gas + cheap ethanol = high priced higher octane) That's what some buddies in the fuel business have told me anyway.

I know that chevron in richmond california peocesses metbe. I see that arco/am-pm/ and BP use ethanol. The oil companies are extremely convoluted. Chevron gets fuel from Tesoro in Martinez, which has an MTBE unit. Some states are Chevron -Texaco and some are Texaco-Shell. I noticed in Benicia that Shell had ethanol. I would be using a test kit if I was concerned about what I put in my airplane...because the retailer probably doesn't know exactly what he is really pumping(unless he is testing it, too).

I don't get what your saying here.

I won't be the pilot to experiment with it in my plane. I do believe that this country will have all ethanol blended gas within 5 to 7 years and that it will be available for most airplanes. I just don't want to be the first to put it in a 0-300.

Most autos don't develope carb ice, and today most autos are fuel injected. Most airplanes are susceptible to carb ice and most old airplanes have carburetors.

I am pro ethanol for autos, but I don't know that all the bases have been covered for aircraft. I don't have an stc for mogas and use all 100LL, at least for now.

Bill

Did I read somewhere of the damaging effect of ethanol or alcohol on the interiors of fuel lines and/or seals. The more expensive more recent fuel lines are lined with something else I understand.
Jeremy

The ethanol (ETOH) can attack certain rubber compounds, some of which have been found in older airplanes. Some Floats in older carbs are not compatible with ETOH either.

My understanding is that the reaction of rubber to the ETOH is the major concern when dealing with blended fuels.

It would not be a horrifically expensive fix, but one would need to know if the tank sealants, hoses and floats would react.

I am looking at the parts in my Stinson to see what I would need to do.

Dane

Good morning all: There are lots of variables. The old question goes like this. Do you want to be a test pilot? My Peterson STC for mogas is emphatic, no gas with methanol! There reason, it is corrosive to some parts in the fuel system. I think I hi-jacked my own thread. O well. Even if methanol blends turn out to be ok, my complaint is there is not as much power in it. That means you burn more to go the same distance. I gov will love that, since you pay tax on every gallon. Cheers…Rob

I don't think anyone is disputing the use of MEOH or ETOH or other additive out side of the STC.

As any chemical addition will change the way the fuel acts on the physical part of the plane.

There is a lot of research being done in this area with concern to aviation.

This is good, as my engine was designed for zero lead and the use of lead in it causes all sorts of problems, so which is worse?

Ask the question, do the research, modify as needed and get approval. If this is the future I would think Peterson will be looking very carefully at the situation as they have a lot to lose.

Dane

IN REGARDS TO MOGAS:

1. MTBE is no longer in any fuel used in the state of California, and has not been used in at least the last two years.

2. ALL of the fuel brands I have tested in all parts of California for the last two years have tested with a minimum of 5% alcohol.

3. Illegal as it may be in accordance with the various STCs and the FAA,
it works just fine and has been doing so since it became the standard here in the Golden State.

4. Mogas does not have the stability of Avgas. If your airplane is idle for extended periods , more than a couple of months, you should have Avgas in the tanks.