I have also been told that there is a difference in octane ratings between auto gas and avgas.

I have been told that a good ratio is 25% avgas, 75% mogas

We may need to call in MTV

I like to use 100% Mogas but if I fly someplace other than around the patch, by nececessity you put in a bunch of 100LL.

I try to hit places like Denio Junction in northern Nevada and Delle, Utah along I-80 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O6yJgX_lHE

Delle and Denio are just gas stations with airstrips adjacent to them. I wish I knew of a few more of these gems that are legal to land at or just almost legal.

Tim

Cal Black, near Lake Powell had mogas, and usually pretty reasonable. Gray Moutain N. of Flagstaff has a strip. I have landed there and taxied across the street to the gas station.
Aztec NM. has mogas. I guess those are the only ones I know of.

Gary

qmdv wrote:Oregon has ethanol free gas at the pump for now.

Do you know where? AFAIK, everywhere on the I-5 corridor has ethanol added.

qmdv wrote

Just look at the high prices of food on the shelf.

So you don't think $100 a barrel oil has anything to do with it? If it weren't for the 6 billion gallons of ethanol being produced, your fuel would be even higher priced. Just read where the small bakers were in Washington complaining about ethanol raising wheat prices because every farmer switched to corn. Turns out 3 million acres more wheat were planted in 2007 than the year before in the USA. I guess the drought in Australia(a big exporter of wheat) had nothing to do with it. You guys that think ethanol is no good are just falling hook,line and sinker for the oil company propaganda.

Here is a picture of a carburetor form a drag racing car running 105 octane E85 ethanol. After months of use there is zero corrosion. You guys do know that they're running ethanol in spray planes in Brazil since it's so much cheaper than 100LL.

I should have guessed that what I posted would bring the corn growers alive. I am a plumber and I just heard the the US government is going to require that everbody change out their copper pipe in their houses to pex or cpvc cus there is a copper shortage and they want us to scap what is in your house.

Give me a few days and I will come up with a justification.

I hate it when the government convinces us do things we would not normally do by cash incentives. Let the market dictate. I recall the whole heard dairy buy out during Agg Sec Block's tenure. What a mess.

When you are beholding to the govenment he owns you and will give you the shaft in the end. (Play on words.)

We can agree to disagree and I still would like to see you some time. Maybe when I bring the plane home from RI. Is your strip covered with snow?

Tim


Tim

Hey Marty, if I were flying east of the Rocky's in your area, I would not hesitate to burn 15% ethanol. I am sure that nobody back there does this though.

Hey isn't that carb made of aluminum. Go figure.

FAA will never allow it cus they will not admit they are wrong. Bob Hoover comes to mind.

Tim

qmdv, Snow is gone and you're welcome to stop by.

1SeventyZ wrote:
Do you know where? AFAIK, everywhere on the I-5 corridor has ethanol added.

Ashland was ethanol free last time I checked. If it is not then I am thinking of cheating. If you use 15% ethanol then an STC is not required.

Tim

bigdawg wrote:100LL is refined to very specific standards with QC check every step along the way. If the product is not perfect, it does not leave the refinery. Every time the product changes hands, a QC check is done, and if it doesn't pass, the fuel doesn't move. Mogas barely has a standard. The octane can fluctuate about 5 points up or down. In addition to the vapor locking and ethanol issues, you could have a tank half full of water and wouldn't know until you started having engine problems. Engine shops also love it when people use Mogas, you will almost never reach TBO.

Sorry if I come off a little curt, but I listen to old cheap bastards piss and moan all day long about how I should have a tank of mogas just for them to use, make no profit on it, when they don't even have the proper STC to use it. It's hard to get people to understand that there is a lot more to the situation than an oil company that wants to sell more 100ll.

Mogas octane can fluctuate 5 points up or down? My BS meter
just swung over to the right a wee bit....

While I could get talked into allowing how it might go down some
if you let it sit for months and years (but 5 points? hard to
believe...), just how is the octane supposed to go up? My
understanding is that while they are no doubt not as stringent as
those in place for 100LL, there *are* rules & regulations in place
covering the quality of Mogas, and if the refiner says it's 87 octane
mogas when he fills the tanker truck, it'll be 87 octane mogas
when it gets to your favorite filling station.

If the quality of Mogas is/was so bad, I would think people with
new vehicle warranties would be suing refineries left & right
because said poor quality (up to 5-point low octane fuel) was
ruining new car engines.... Sorry, but I don't buy it....

As to an aircraft piston engine making TBO, in my humble opinion,
the best way to do that is run it often (don't let it sit), operate it
per the book and change the oil per the manufacturer's
recommendations.

100LL has 4 times the lead in it than what many of the low
compression aviation piston engines flying out there were
designed for. I happen to think it's the other way around.
If you run a low compression piston aircraft engine designed
for 80/87 octane exclusively on 100LL, you are basically
guaranteeing yourself that you will not to make TBO (at least on
the top end). 100LL *will* foul plugs and exhaust valves *will*
stick... it's just a matter of time....

I understand that 100LL is the worst thing tht you can put in a Franklin Engine

Tim

Guys check out this site plenty of info and you can always call and get any facts you would like. http://www.autofuelstc.com/
Bill

Since installing the Petersen mogas STC, my O-470 has been one happy camper. It starts up RIGHTNOW, every time, hot or cold, and I think (but can't prove) that it's more powerful. Every A&P I've known who has torn down a mogas engine has commented on how clean they are inside. No sludge, no fouled guides, just much tidier and easier to inspect.

Yes, vapor pressure is a concern, but typically only for injected, pumped low wingers. Can't rule it out for any airplane though if the conditions are just right. It does stink, but I can live with it knowing I'm saving $$.

I was even running mogas in my RV8 and it did great. (I kept one tank on avgas for vapor control and ran that tank during takeoff and landings.) Plugs stayed a nice, even tan in color, oil stayed cleaner, etc.

Now that my fueling trailer is done. The logistics of mogasing the airplane at my airpark home is a non-issue. Having mogas available at more airports would really expand my (and, I'll wager MANY pilot's) ability to do more traveling. This would, as a side effect, bring more overall business to FBO's by shear volume of traffic.

We can hope.

Didn't we beat this to death last year?

Didn't Marty teach us all that ethanol is no longer corrosive?

And that it will never be approved because it can hold to much water that can separate at altitude?

I am ready for some NitroMethane in the back country banshee

Yeh we did beat it to death last year along with how to empty a can of gas into your plane. I still am not sure how to do it, accept have your plane and life over insured.

Tim

I have to agree with Bela. After buying a 170 with the O-300 that had run on MoGas for 55 yrs and flying it with 100LL over the past 1.5 yrs a valve stuck as Bela suggested. These engines were not designed for 100LL or ethynol. One thing not mentioned is ethynol is really bad for gaskets, orings... It's not about the corrosion it's about how it destroys (eats away at) gaskets/orings. Of course there are other reasons for a valve to stick but I'm sure it was due to the change over from 80/87 to 100LL. If I could get ethynol free MoGas in Oregon I would buy it but there are no guarantees as of this Spring all pumps are required to have ethynol. And Tim, Oregon will never pull it's head out as long as a few select Willamette Valley cities speak for all of Oregon. Trust me it gets frustrating.

FlynRftr wrote

One thing not mentioned is ethynol is really bad for gaskets, orings... It's not about the corrosion it's about how it destroys (eats away at) gaskets/orings.

I take it you have first-hand experience with this problem?

I have heard this o ring and gasket crap for too long. I am not a real big fan of ethanol. My gripe with it is that if it has to be legislated then it is not worth it. Now we have to move on from this piont though.

I suppose that you think that new engines in the modern cars have no o rings and gaskets. How do they survive. I have a few o rings arround the shop and some cork and other gasket material. After the easter fun I will go out to the shop and put some in a gar of California gas and will give a monthly report. Not the o rings for your kithcen faucet but the ones for hydralic cylinders.

I have a local pilot friend that has an stc for auto gas for his 172. He has used auto gas for about eight years and early on he tested for ethanol. Never found any so he quite testing. When Cal went to ethanol he hissed the news and has been useing gas with ethanole blend ever since with no problem.

About four months ago I asked if he had been testing lately and he said no. I told him he ought to. Now he goes to Oregon for his auto gas. He accidently ran ethanol for years with no problem.

So there.

Tim

Tim

I've been asking people that I bump into that use auto gas if they test for ethanol, most don't even know how, they think you have to buy some kind of tester or kit or something.
Now maybe it's just stupid Georgia rednecks, but I think there are hundreds of airplanes flying on ethanol mixed gas. So either there is going to be a bunch of accidents soon or it doesn't hurt anything.