My comments were meant to be directed at the number of times the strip was landed at, taken off from, or flown over in such a short period of time. taildrgfun said he always gives other users lots of room so I see no problem. In this months IAA newsletter there was a letter sent in about someone doing repeated takeoff and landings at Moose Creek. Another pilot on the ground tried to get a hold of them with his radio but there was no response. The ranger got mad, got their N# and called someone to complain. It is this type of thing that worries me because many of the rangers would just assume the strip be closed, but if no one was around then fine.

You want to see a video of taildrgfun at mile hi...he doesnt do it backwards but he does it sidways


I personally would love to go flying with him...how bout Thursday

whee wrote:My comments were meant to be directed at the number of times the strip was landed at, taken off from, or flown over in such a short period of time. taildrgfun said he always gives other users lots of room so I see no problem. In this months IAA newsletter there was a letter sent in about someone doing repeated takeoff and landings at Moose Creek. Another pilot on the ground tried to get a hold of them with his radio but there was no response. The ranger got mad, got their N# and called someone to complain. It is this type of thing that worries me because many of the rangers would just assume the strip be closed.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Great flying ability and interesting video but repeated touch and goes can get us in trouble at these strips. There are several backcountry wilderness strips which already have a yearly landing maximum which when they are exceed the strip is to supposed be closed for the year ie Moose Creek, Shaefer Meadows

Grassstrippilot wrote:

Lawleraero wrote:Well said Kenny! Guys, I know it's fun. I know it looks cool. But if we repeatedly keep doing things that tick off the non-flying users of the Idaho Backcountry, we will loose the strips and access that we all love. It's a wilderness area that we share, and we are the minority user. Look at what happened to the Grand Canyon. We used to be able to fly and land in many places around the park. With the stroke of a pen we lost the right to fly in a huge part of Arizona. It is now essentially a prohibited area with no access except for commercial operators. The same could easily happen here if we don't play our cards right.

Who exactly are these "non-flying users" that he supposedly ticked off in this instance? So had he done a "normal" approach all would have been ok? Seems to me the noise foot print would be the same. Look, we all have the responsibility to be good flying neighbors while in the backcountry or anywhere. At the same time, however, like Jomac said, we also have the same right to be there as anyone else. And not to split hairs, but Wilson Bar isn't in the designated wilderness area, which is a moot point since again, we all have the responsibility to use some common sense while flying anywhere.

Once again, nice flying Taildrgfun and great vid Mark. Thanks for posting. I'd like to see a vid of the guy that did Cabin Creek backwards.

Grasstrippilot, there was no reference to this particular instance. It is a cumulative problem. The list of conservation groups, wilderness advocates, river runner groups, etc, is lengthly. Those are the folks who constantly harp on the agencies to keep aircraft out of "their" wilderness. Have you forgotten when the BuRec closed ALL float plane operations on Idaho public waters a couple of years ago because a few landowners got ticked off? Reversing that took nearly three years and a boat load of effort & money. If I knew your real world name I could find out if you contributed to that effort or not. Anyway, this is not about any single event. You are correct, Wilson Bar is not in the wilderness, and a "normal" approach is not the issue; repeated and unnessary operations are. The USFS is still trying to run down the dingbat who did eight touch and goes at Moose Creek last May. That was irresponsible behavior which has consequences detrimental to our access.

Once again, nice piloting and a fine ship but poor choice of location.

I am glad this thread came along, I have been thinking about posting for a time. I started flying the Northern Idaho and Western Montana wilderness strips in 1966 and continued for 22 years, then went to victor airways until the present. I started doing some flying of my favorite backcountry strips on my own again this summer after a too long of layoff. Having returned after a long hiatus I noted some disturbing trends at wilderness strips:
1. Multiple take offs and landing and group arrivals. You have noted the mutliple take offs and landings at Moose Creek, I was there that day, and I have watched some great videos on You Tube and Vimeo of arrivals and departures at back country strips. The videos note multiple landings and group arrivals on these great airstrips, but these are disturbing to me becasue of the density of aircraft, number of landings, just to put a notch on the belt. I am sure they are disturing to the controlling agencies, they know how to watch You Tube. I would think challenging non wilderness strips could be found for instruction,practice, and seminars.
2. Large camping footprint. We need to take a lesson from the rafting guys and leave our campsites without a trace to give the next occupant a wilderness experience. There are multiple fire rings and wood chopping and cutting debris left at the campgrounds. On some wilderness rivers, a portable fire pan is needed for a wood fire. Obviously this is not very practicle for aircraft, but we don't want this imposed on us. Think backpacking stoves for cooking. At the very least, use the present fire ring.
3. Human solid waste. We need to take out what we brought in, this includes solid human waste. Anybody taking a crap in a hole or behind a log should be flogged. Nothing better than finding a pile, with toilet paper, to enhance your wilderness experience. There are some great lightweight chemical pouches, that come with portable camodes, that are dumpster approved on your return to civilation. Again, the river guys have been doing this for years.
4. Low altitude transit flights. There is nothing better than cruising along at low levels in smooth air to see the sights on our way to the next strip, but noise will get more complaints from the ground forces than anything else. Altitude is our friend in more than one way. I used to watch the State of Utahs' 185 take off in the morning from SLC, and it was noisier than any thing else leaving, jets included. If we leave this kind of noise footprint, we will find tremendous pressure to have us shut out.
5. We have the "right " attitude. Our presence in the wilderness with aircraft has been preserved with some foreward thinking politicians, pilots, state and federal employees, and volunteers. I prefer to think of this as a privelage, not a right. We need to work hard to preserve this through compliance with good operating practices and wilderness manners. I had been in some great strips in the Bob Marshall wilderness years ago, and they are now closed, we don't want that to happen to these gems.
If we can voluntarilay police ourselves, we can enjoy this activity for years to come, but if we abuse this privalge we will find ourselves on the outside looking in, no matter how hard we object.
I know most follow good practices, and are good stewards, but we need to do better. It only takes a couple of knot heads to spoil it for everyone.

Bob C

I rarely fly the "official" back country, I've found it, oddly enough, too busy for my tastes, plus you can't ride your mountain bike! When talking with out of towner pilots, the first thing they'll say is "man, you must fly all the Frank Church strips all the time", I feel awkward responding "notsomuch". I get in in a few of them a couple times a year. For a truely out there experience, where I can ride the mountain bike after setting camp up to get even further out there, I go to the Lemhi and Lost River valley areas, I have some places I can get out in and not see or hear anyone for a true wilderness exerience, go figure.... I do like the strips adjacent to, but not in, the Frank Church, Upper Loon Creek is an annual favorite, as is Copper Basin, May, and others. Great mt. biking also and no rangers to worry about.

Very interesting dialogue. It is good to be reminded of our responsibilites from time to time. We have to be good stewards and good neighbors while we are having fun!

Kenny wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:

Lawleraero wrote:Well said Kenny! Guys, I know it's fun. I know it looks cool. But if we repeatedly keep doing things that tick off the non-flying users of the Idaho Backcountry, we will loose the strips and access that we all love. It's a wilderness area that we share, and we are the minority user. Look at what happened to the Grand Canyon. We used to be able to fly and land in many places around the park. With the stroke of a pen we lost the right to fly in a huge part of Arizona. It is now essentially a prohibited area with no access except for commercial operators. The same could easily happen here if we don't play our cards right.

Who exactly are these "non-flying users" that he supposedly ticked off in this instance? So had he done a "normal" approach all would have been ok? Seems to me the noise foot print would be the same. Look, we all have the responsibility to be good flying neighbors while in the backcountry or anywhere. At the same time, however, like Jomac said, we also have the same right to be there as anyone else. And not to split hairs, but Wilson Bar isn't in the designated wilderness area, which is a moot point since again, we all have the responsibility to use some common sense while flying anywhere.

Once again, nice flying Taildrgfun and great vid Mark. Thanks for posting. I'd like to see a vid of the guy that did Cabin Creek backwards.

Grasstrippilot, there was no reference to this particular instance. It is a cumulative problem. The list of conservation groups, wilderness advocates, river runner groups, etc, is lengthly. Those are the folks who constantly harp on the agencies to keep aircraft out of "their" wilderness. Have you forgotten when the BuRec closed ALL float plane operations on Idaho public waters a couple of years ago because a few landowners got ticked off? Reversing that took nearly three years and a boat load of effort & money. If I knew your real world name I could find out if you contributed to that effort or not. Anyway, this is not about any single event. You are correct, Wilson Bar is not in the wilderness, and a "normal" approach is not the issue; repeated and unnessary operations are. The USFS is still trying to run down the dingbat who did eight touch and goes at Moose Creek last May. That was irresponsible behavior which has consequences detrimental to our access.

Once again, nice piloting and a fine ship but poor choice of location.

Kenny,

I'm well aware of the conservative groups and what they are capable of. The post I replied to implied that someone had been offended by this instance. So, I asked the valid question, "Who?" Whether or not I or anyone else contributed to one cause or another is irrelevant to the subject at hand. As Skymaule reiterated, we all have the responsibility to be good stewards, flying neighbors, or whatever else you want to call it. In this instance, I, as well as the majority, saw that Taildrgfun did nothing wrong.

grassstrippilot wrote:Kenny,

I'm well aware of the conservative groups and what they are capable of. The post I replied to implied that someone had been offended by this instance. So, I asked the valid question, "Who?" Whether or not I or anyone else contributed to one cause or another is irrelevant to the subject at hand. As Skymaule reiterated, we all have the responsibility to be good stewards, flying neighbors, or whatever else you want to call it. In this instance, I, as well as the majority, saw that Taildrgfun did nothing wrong.

Well, darn it, grassstrippilot, now we are sucked into the vortex of despair so common on these forums. I will try and point out the problem. Nothing personal here.

1. "implied that someone had been offended by this instance". Nothing of the kind was said, but rather the widely known fact that the agencies, conservation groups, and non-aviator users are sensitive to unnecessary and frivolous operations at BC strips. You misinterpreted the comment and turned the tone of the conversation away from it's intended purpose. That happens a lot in these venues.

2. Based on an erroneous assumption (implied that someone had been offended by this instance) your question of "who" does not apply nor contribute to the conversation.

3. The only "subject at hand" was that the kinds of activities as demonstrated by the Wilson Bar video have negative consequences to BC pilots. I have documented those consequences many times, and continue to work with the agencies to mitigate them, as well as try and inform folks who my not be aware of those consequences, that they do exist and are a threat to our access in the BC.

As a personal observation, I will say that there have been many, many examples in history where "I, as well as the majority, saw… nothing wrong". The Warsaw Ghetto comes to mind. Birmingham, Selma, Watts, Vietnam, Three Mile Island, Wall Street. We Americans are easily lulled into comfort and tunnel vision. There are powerful entities out there whose purpose is to get rid of us BC pilots. I can tell you from 30 years of personal experience that they love to use something like the Wilson Bar example in their arguments. Ignore them at our peril. Peace.

Well here I am kickn back at the Lakeview airport in Oregon. I am camped under the wing of my Maule. The pilot lounge is open and has wifi.

So here is my 2 cents worth on Wilson Bar. Mark and Steve did nothing wrong. Steve wanted to test his ability and his plane. Nothing wrong there.

Hypothetically if my two friends had done more than 3 landings each then I would contemplate the situation more.

The people who want us out will say we use the strips to much, so we must go. If we don't use them enough they will say look, they are not being used so lets close them.

These strips were grand fathered in when the Church was created.

By the way. Steve's Highlander is very quiet. I would rather listen to Steve's plane for an hour over 1 take off by a 180/185 with that obnoxious prop some have.

Cheers....Rob

very good points, rob. my friends 185's are the loudest in the back country. i have my prop set on my T-182 so that
it still delivers rocknroll takeoffs without the extra racket...this is taught in the better mt. courses...we don't do runups in the back country either...simply go wide open for as short a time as possible for a safe departure, and leave the prop out so as not to over-rev. the mt. courses i've been involved with teach courtesy and common sense, so as not to rile up the floaters and such, all the while realizing that the frank is everyones, not a select few peoples private playground...i've been traveling back there for a lot of years, and i have the utmost respect for the land and the other people that get to enjoy it...

Exactly Rob and Jo, you hit the nail on the head.

As someone mentioned earlier, much more fuss has been made over this than should have been. Your comments pretty much says it all and I will leave it at that.

Grassstrippilot wrote:Kenny,

I'm well aware of the conservationist groups and what they are capable of. The post I replied to implied that someone had been offended by this instance. So, I asked the valid question, "Who?" Whether or not I or anyone else contributed to one cause or another is irrelevant to the subject at hand. As Skymaule reiterated, we all have the responsibility to be good stewards, flying neighbors, or whatever else you want to call it. In this instance, I, as well as the majority, saw that Taildrgfun did nothing wrong.

Fixed!