Ok this is a serious question!!!!! I know some of you will give a funny or smart ass answer, and to be honest I would be disappointed if you didn’t. I've decided to get my Instructor Certificate. I was speaking with the two instructors who got me through my PPL. We were discussing, how to teach, what to teach, how do you know when a student is ready to SOLO and then we started to talk about, what is the most dangerous time in an airplane?????

One of my instructors said he thought the most dangerous time was between 50-200 feet AGL after take off, at low speeds (Vx). It was discussed: if you lose an engine can you recover the airplane without hitting the ground real hard??? We talked about it for a long time and then we went out and tried it at altitude. I was really amazed how much altitude you lost in that configuration when you lose and engine. We started a best angle climb and at 6200 ft MSL we pulled the engine. I was amazed how much you need to get the nose down, not just “Lower the nose.” I was also amazed how much air speed you loose before you get the nose down. What really got my attention was our sink rate as we passed through 6000 MSL!!! I also thought “I was ready” for the “Engine failure,” what if you are not ready for it or an inexperienced pilot??? Another question for you CFI’s, do you teach this and if so how???? Have you ever tried this and what was your result.

This also got me thinking of a trip to Johnson Creek a couple of years ago. I watched several 180 and 185’s climb out at a real high angle of climb. Were they just showing off or is that the correct way?? Maybe in a real short place with high trees at the departure end, that might be the way but JC is rather large. Please feel free to add any comments. Or, am I way off base????????

Interesting.

I'm doing my BFR next month and just added this to my list of things to do.

It never ceases to amaze me what instructors teach, and because of their teaching, people just think about engines quitting and wings failing.

In my opinion, The most dangerous time in an airplane is in a turn, slow or fast it doesn't matter cross controlled and your a spin waiting to go splat.

It gets high timers and low timers, Base to final oops, I need a little more rudder.
Nose is dropping let me pull the stick back and pick that up a little ,,,,,,,,

Wham you just entered a spin at 500ft
The sad part is, you could easily recover but the instructor never taught you how.
He was to busy talking about things like departure stalls and your engine quiting etc.

Not to slam any instructors out there but the stats will probably agree with me.

While the base to final turn seems to kill people with monotonous regularity, and statistically taxing on the airfield is by far the most dangerous phase, I'd say the most dangerous time is the pre-flight. Of the crashes I've been witness to, that was the one and only time things could have been corrected.

Taking off really isn't that dangerous providing you have enough runway, you're not overweight, you took the gust lock off, you have ample fuel for your needs, you put the gas caps back on, you confirmed the red fluid on the underside of the plane is Mr. Pibb and not hydraulic fluid, you know the weather will be favorable, etc... but fail any of several dozen simple, routine pre-flight chores and once you push the throttle in a chain of events begins which you are no longer in a position to remedy.

Kind of a dull answer, but aside from base to final spins the only people I've seen die in a plane were dead the moment they decided to try and take off.

Is losing an engine on take-off at 200 foot AGL any more dangerous than having a vacuum failure during night IMC and not being partial panel proficient? Icing up the tail of your Caravan and letting yourself slow down below 110 KTS? Not paying attention in flat light and smacking the ground in a CFIT incident? Like arguing which rifle or shotgun to use on Bigfoot, or pistol vs. revolver, the only black and white answer out there is who's gonna make the beer run so you can argue about it more.

Hammer touched on the real answer, and it's a simple one. It's poor mind-set that kills pilots and breaks airplanes. You've got to develop those little voices that tell you something isn't right, and learn from experience to pay attention and listen to them. Guys who are well versed, current and proficient in their airplanes can do things that would get a weekend warrior killed in just a few minutes. Not because they're better pilots per se, but because they have the experience to separate out the normal from the abnormal, and keep their focus on what's important.

I was taught, and learned a long time ago, to always have a place to go to when things turn to shit. Slower is better, and boring is good. That turn to final too tight? What's the hurry? Go around and set up a more stable approach. Passengers or boss pressuring you to rush your pre-flight? You're the pilot, not them. Tune 'em out and start over, and don't ever restart a flow if you're interrupted. Start over. Bounce that crosswind landing real hard, and weathered out of everywhere else so you have to land there? Don't fly a tight, low pattern while jacked up and make the same mistakes as last approach. Go find that empty chunk of sky, trim the airplane, then slow down and just think about things for a few minutes.

Is this something a CFI can teach? I think so, but I'm betting most have no clue. It's just a crying shame that there are so few experienced guys/gals out there who can afford to teach for a living. I learned from WWII vets and Alaska stick and rudder guys, but hell, they're gone now. And my generation hasn't done a real good job of passing on the torch. All the new rules and regs to keep us "safe," all the fancy avionics are magic when they work. But there's a bunch of folks out there who are completely numb in the seat of the pants, and totally lost when the electrons fail. When they have to use common sense to get safely on the ground they are ill prepared.

Gump

I am just curious, in the US do you have to do spin recovery and unusual attitude stall recovery for a PPL? My instructor had me doing them long before he showed me how to land the plane. I read somewere that the US didnt require them ,or instrument time, for a PPL

ccurrie wrote:I am just curious, in the US do you have to do spin recovery and unusual attitude stall recovery for a PPL? My instructor had me doing them long before he showed me how to land the plane. I read somewere that the US didnt require them ,or instrument time, for a PPL

No, the experience requirements of the certificate don't include spin training beyond the suggested discussion. Any spin recovery training is up to the discretion of the instructor and the allowed maneuvers on the TC for the aircraft and/or category.

I did an emergency maneuvers and aerobatics course...lots of spins. The best part though was not necessarily the recovery, but getting a feel for the entry.

I think the most dangerous time in an airplane is when you have allowed lack of forethought and/or planning to put yourself in a corner where skill is at the stop and you are relying on luck.
This can occur at any phase of flight in my experience.

Instrument dual in VFR conditions without actually being in the ATC system. Most of the time, both the instructor (or safety pilot) and student are looking at the clocks, not outside.

Multi-instruction in the usual underpowered twin trainer ranks a close second.

Just my opinion.

gb

In my opinion, The most dangerous time in an airplane is in a turn, slow or fast it doesn't matter cross controlled and your a spin waiting to go splat.

It gets high timers and low timers, Base to final oops, I need a little more rudder.
Nose is dropping let me pull the stick back and pick that up a little ,,,,,,,,

Wham you just entered a spin at 500ft
The sad part is, you could easily recover but the instructor never taught you how.

I'm still training for my PPL so bare with me.

You just entered a spin at 500ft.

What is the procedure? I was taught this at 3000 ft.
After we entered the spin, I stared at the ground quickly coming up at me while the seat belt prevented me from kissing the windshield.

For a split second or six, I could not think. Just look.

The instructor allowed the plane to gather airspeed, used rudder and eased the nose back up to level flight.

A few minutes later, we did it again, but this time I didn't panic like I had done before. I flew the plane instead of stared at the approaching earth. I'm still thinking we lost about 500 ft or maybe a touch more.

The above question got me to thinking...
You just entered a spin at 500ft.

What is the procedure?


At that low altitude, what would one do?


Before entering the spin I would hopefully had applied more throttle to keep airspeed.

However, if somehow I screwed something up and found myself at a spin at 500 ft. I think it would be hard to correct that in time.

Am I wrong?

JC wrote:However, if somehow I screwed something up and found myself at a spin at 500 ft.

The key is you don't "find" yourself anywhere. You're the pilot, not the passenger. You feel and see what the airplane is doing, and you make it do what you want it to do.

Gump

Yeah, I know that part, but I am referring to this statement:

The sad part is, you could easily recover but the instructor never taught you how.

What is the procedure?

Is it generally like this?
Nose down.
Gather airspeed.
Rudder in direction of spin.
Level off and full throttle?


I'm definitely going to make a point of practicing this more at a safe altitude. See how many feet I can recover in.

JC wrote:Yeah, I know that part, but I am referring to this statement:

The sad part is, you could easily recover but the instructor never taught you how.

What is the procedure?

Your airplane doesn't know, or care, if it's at 5,000 feet AGL or 50 foot AGL. If it's forced into a stall/spin, the recovery is exactly the same as any other spin. How fast you recover is dependent on your reaction times, aircraft CG and loading, and density altitude.

High time mountain pilots will get bit every now and then with a stall/spin working into a hard strip, but they're flying a corner of the envelope that they know intimately, which they know can bite them in a heartbeat. Sometimes density altitude, lack of horsepower, and a screwy wind is all it takes to overwhelm pilot and airplane. Their eyes and seat of the pants are well aware of what's going on, but when you work an airplane, sometimes you have to take it where it really doesn't belong. Stuff does happen.

On the other hand, being cross-controlled at Mayfield Muni on a nice day and augering it in from 300 feet, means that the pilot was about ten miles behind the airplane and working real hard to break it. The odds of that guy doing fancy pilot shit to recover from a spin at 300 feet are about nil.

Gump

JC wrote:What is the procedure?

Is it generally like this?
Nose down.
Gather airspeed.
Rudder in direction of spin.
Level off and full throttle?


I'm definitely going to make a point of practicing this more at a safe altitude. See how many feet I can recover in.

Noooooo......RUDDER OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF SPIN!

At very low altitudes your reaction must be almost an automatic nervous system response, you don't have time to think about it. My response would be:

Center stick and full forward to the stop while pushing full opposite rudder. As soon as the wing is flying again (might be almost immediately) bring the stick back to neutral and start pulling out while adding power. Don't enter a secondary accelerated stall while pulling out, even if you have to hit the ground! Don't concern yourself with where you are pointed until you have started to climb again, you need the wings level for the maximum lift during recovery.

Obviously the hitting the ground part is something you will never get to practice, but the quickness with which you can break the spin is something that you CAN and SHOULD practice!

DON'T DO THIS ON YOUR OWN!!!!!! Find an instructor who knows spins and an airplane certified for spins and parachutes and learn these recoveries cold, from incipient spins to one turn to multiple turns to accelerated secondaries to entries under the bottom to entries over the top....might even be a good idea to get some snap roll practice. I doubt you will want to do all this in a single session! Actually, acrobatic training may be the best dollars you ever spend on instruction.

I had spin training before I got my Private and it has always been amazing to me that the FAA ever dropped this requirement.

I think you will find that it is possible to recover a quarter turn or maybe even a half turn spin in some airplanes within two hundred feet IF your recovery is perfect for that airplane. It MUST be an automatic response.

Y'all be careful up there!

Rocky

pif_sonic wrote:This also got me thinking of a trip to Johnson Creek a couple of years ago. I watched several 180 and 185’s climb out at a real high angle of climb. Were they just showing off or is that the correct way?? Maybe in a real short place with high trees at the departure end, that might be the way but JC is rather large. Please feel free to add any comments.

Other guys had some good ideas on the most dangerous part, so I'll just comment on the Vx climb.

For low time pilots or anyone flying an unfamiliar type, making all departures to 200 feet at Vx probably isn't a good idea for the reasons you mentioned. I did some practice in the 180 at a light weight at sea level by cutting power abruptly at 200 feet with 20 degrees of flap (that's normal takeoff setting). It wasn't pretty!
I had to push FULL forward elevator and HOLD it there for several seconds to get the nose down. The airspeed went from 55 to 45 before it started increasing again! That means I would have stalled if I hadn't been in very low G. I was forced to pull full flaps to get enough flare to avoid crashing. Needless to say I never practiced THAT again.

Bear in mind that a very light 180 at sea level will have about a 40 degree nose high attitude in a Vx climb, but still.

Now, my procedure is never to use a Vx climb unless absolutely necessary for obstacle clearance. However, I do not use Vy either...I climb to maybe 10 feet at Vx, which is 55kts , accelerate to 65 and continue climbout. (Vy is 84). This is with 20 degrees of flap. I climb to about 800 feet, lower the nose to 75, retract the flaps and accelerate to about 90 for the rest of the climb. This is assuming no surrounding terrain. If there is I might stay at 65 to 70 with 20 degrees until I'm clear of all terrain. Gotta watch the temps on that slow climb though.

The reason to climb to 800 feet before retracting the flaps and accelerating is that a light 180/185 will climb at a higher angle at this speed (65kts) than it will glide at! Thus after 30 or so seconds I know I can make a 180 turn back into the field if I have a problem. I also routinely turn about 30 degrees away from runway heading to help with a possible turnback.

This does not work if the plane is heavy or at a high density altitude. If that is the case I only climb to about 200 feet before cleaning up and accelerating as I would rather have airspeed than altitude when heavy if I can't have both. This is what I have learned for the 180, other aircraft may need a totally different procedure.

Have a safe New Year!

Rocky

The spin recovery acronym, not that you could actually use it, is PARE.
Power = off
Ailerons = leveled
Rudder = full opposite
Elevator = down to build airspeed

RockyTFS wrote:I had to push FULL forward elevator and HOLD it there for several seconds to get the nose down. The airspeed went from 55 to 45 before it started increasing again! That means I would have stalled if I hadn't been in very low G.

AOPA Pilot had an article about their "PUSH" campaign a while back. One interesting bit that I remember is that a quick reaction with a hard push should utilize available energy to take your G's almost to zero, thereby reducing induced drag enough to let you slide through that region of low airspeed and start building again without taking the wing too close to the critical angle of attack.

RockyTFS wrote:

JC wrote:What is the procedure?

Is it generally like this?
Nose down.
Gather airspeed.
Rudder in direction of spin.
Level off and full throttle?


I'm definitely going to make a point of practicing this more at a safe altitude. See how many feet I can recover in.

Noooooo......RUDDER OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF SPIN!

At very low altitudes your reaction must be almost an automatic nervous system response, you don't have time to think about it. My response would be:

Center stick and full forward to the stop while pushing full opposite rudder. As soon as the wing is flying again (might be almost immediately) bring the stick back to neutral and start pulling out while adding power. Don't enter a secondary accelerated stall while pulling out, even if you have to hit the ground! Don't concern yourself with where you are pointed until you have started to climb again, you need the wings level for the maximum lift during recovery.

Obviously the hitting the ground part is something you will never get to practice, but the quickness with which you can break the spin is something that you CAN and SHOULD practice!

DON'T DO THIS ON YOUR OWN!!!!!! Find an instructor who knows spins and an airplane certified for spins and parachutes and learn these recoveries cold, from incipient spins to one turn to multiple turns to accelerated secondaries to entries under the bottom to entries over the top....might even be a good idea to get some snap roll practice. I doubt you will want to do all this in a single session! Actually, acrobatic training may be the best dollars you ever spend on instruction.

I had spin training before I got my Private and it has always been amazing to me that the FAA ever dropped this requirement.

I think you will find that it is possible to recover a quarter turn or maybe even a half turn spin in some airplanes within two hundred feet IF your recovery is perfect for that airplane. It MUST be an automatic response.

Y'all be careful up there!

Rocky

Not trying to be critical here as I am in agreement, just a thought or two.

Spin training should still be part of getting a private, no question about it. But, just because a student went out with an instructor 15 years ago and did some spins doesn't make him proficient at recoveries. Like everything else, practice is essential.

Secondly, some airplanes will not recover in a 1/2 turn or less in a fully developed spin, perfect technique or not. As an example, one Decathalon I flew would recover pretty quickly all by itself if I just let go of the stick, but I had to actually do something in a spinning Super Cub. I would imagine that the old C180 would be a bit of a handful there for a bit with a couple of friends, a bunch of petrol, and a load of gear. Recognition and avoidance is key.

Like Gump said, "You're the pilot, not the passenger". Don't put yourself there, especially when the skills are a little rusty. Like Rocky said, "...be careful...".

gb

Your generally pretty safe for the first couple of hundred hours or so because you are aware your not God's gift to aviation. After a couple of hundred hours you think you are, and you become unsafe. Most people have a near accident that they survive by luck, not skill and they decided that they aren't as good as they thought they were and they don't "push" as hard.
The real killer from what I have watched is complacency. Your experienced now, done this hundreds of times before etc. and you get tired, lazy or just start cutting corners and get caught. This is what get's your experienced guy's.
Think about last years high profile accidents, flying a perfectly good Husky into the ground with the survival vest left at home, lift struts failing due to corrosion etc. To me the most dangerous time is when your comfortable, relaxed and maybe day dreaming

A friend of mine said that one of the great things about flying is it gives you a chance to die in a completely new way, as we will never exhaust the different ways to kill ourselves in a plane.

As an example he relayed the story (unverified but presented as true) of a man coming into a grass strip early one morning in his Cessna 180. The wind was ripping right down the strip, and as you'd expect the wind sock was sticking straight out. The pilot flew a normal pattern, but rather than the short landing he expected, the plane just kept floating down the runway until, too late for him to take corrective action, it balled up in the trees on the far end.

Turns out a freezing rain the night before had cemented the windsock into position, and when the wind changed directions, the wind sock did not. Since in all his experience a wind sock had never lied to him, the pilot never questioned the wind direction, even when everything else absolutely screamed that he was landing downwind.

A similar though less consequential thing happened again and again in Auburn this summer. The AWOS had a hitch in its getup and kept giving incorrect wind speeds and directions. Despite a wind sock and a wind T and the movement of the aircraft stating otherwise, pilot after pilot would land downwind because what the AWOS told them trumped what they could see with their own eyes.

Hammer wrote:Turns out a freezing rain the night before had cemented the windsock into position, and when the wind changed directions, the wind sock did not. Since in all his experience a wind sock had never lied to him, the pilot never questioned the wind direction, even when everything else absolutely screamed that he was landing downwind.

Whooo boy, I thought I'd heard nearly everything in 40 years!
Never had that particular experience, thank God, but I sure have seen a few windsocks rusty enough that they wouldn't turn below 20 kts.

I have also been fooled several times by the tower calling winds that were totally different from what was happening in the touchdown zone, and I'm a sceptic! The worst landing I ever made in the 180 was a direct result of that scenario.

Especially in the boonies, a little deductive thought about upper winds and local terrain effects might just raise a red flag in time to avoid these embarrasing (or worse) incidents. Also, look for other wind indicators to verify the windsock (grass, leaves on the trees, water, grazing animals, birds taking off, etc.).

Rocky