A neighbor boy who got interested in flying as a kid from seeing the Blue Angels and shaking hands with one of the pilots just moved from flying A-10's to piloting the F-22 Raptor. Even his brother has given up trying to get a word out of him on performance, he just smiles. I had thought there would be some good stories to share but the range of capability is being kept quiet. Is this the norm for military aircraft or just for something new?

My brother in laws, brother in law worked on the computer systems on Stealth fighters and Bombers back before they even became public. He still won't say one word about those planes. I gave up long time ago trying to get him to talk anything about what he did or knew about any military projects he worked on. Heck, he could have commuted to Area 51 for all I know. But, I'm guessing I'll never know. But that's fine. I probably don't need to know anyway.

I've turned wrenches on them and developed some of the tech data on the engines and exhaust. Yes on performance figures, but I can tell you I hate working on that exhaust system

I knew a Double E in SoCal (30+ yrs. ago) that spent his entire career developing-then upgrading-the SR-71 electronics suite. Couldn't even whisper to his spouse what he was working on! Not only didn't get a ride-he didn't get to even SEE one until it was unveiled to the public (he had seen a model). He first saw it fly at a public airshow..... (need to know, and all that) ....just before retirement......and the man loved airplanes!
When I met him 30+ years ago he was just retired and allowed to say he was a Double E that had 'helped' develop the electronics for it..... No more.
As a retiree, he was loving being able to tell friends and relatives what he did. Before the plane was unveiled he was only allowed to say "defense industry" for an occupation.
Oh, as a retiree, because of his knowledge, he was not allowed to travel outside the US.

That had to be tough keeping that bottled up inside all those years!
lc

It may seem comical what you can and cannot say about military aircraft. There was loads about my aircraft, the E2C, that we where not able to mention. It isn't that many of the things weren't common knowledge, we simply couldn't mention anything to give confirmation on the generally known items. The other side knew perfectly well how fast and high the SR-71 flew, they had radar data of literally hundreds of flights. There where few tricks up its sleeve that had not been revealed over the years in operational situations. Once you turn on a jammer, the cat is out of the bag.

Our systems did things we didn't even know about. It wasn't uncommon while fiddling with stuff on slow days over the Indian Ocean, to have a "wow I didn't know it could do that!" moment. My favorite classified part, was an enormous part, can't tell you what it was, but it was as big a part as you could possibly get through the door. It weighed at least 600-800 lbs and had "Top Secret" stenciled on it. I could always see somebody trying to make off with it. Then some guard going "hey you, stop there." "Who me?" "What's that there?" "Oh this!, its a...ah, trash can, yeah, that the ticket."

The military loves its secrecy, it is the culture.

So what's the deal with the USAF pilots that are publicly going on record against the aircraft? Isn't that, like... grounds for discharge?

Zane wrote:So what's the deal with the USAF pilots that are publicly going on record against the aircraft? Isn't that, like... grounds for discharge?

USAF claims no action will be taken against whistle blowing pilots.

Here is a May 7 release concerning the issues.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fighter-p ... 6wIjc16wrg

Refusing to fly an aircraft, for cause, is completely up to the pilot and the pilot alone. He can only be overridden by a flag officer, general/admiral and up, directly in control. However, regulations are quite clear, the flag officer accepts all responsibility for the flight and any or all consequences thereof, including any legal or disciplinary actions.

Now speaking publicly, thats a horse of a different color. Regs are quite specific about that. Your screwed. The service is a big organism with a long memory. The press and public have short attention spans. Consequences will happen later in their careers. Expect O-4 and no higher, defiantly not screen for command.

I personally refused to fly a series of aircraft that had all experienced similar failures on each successive aircraft. Nobody gave me $hit about it, they investigated and traced the problem to the source. At least in the Navy, we didn't want to loose 205 million dollar aircraft because a desk pilot said it was safe. There is a difference in how the Navy and the Air Force maintains aircraft. In the Navy we maintain aircraft within the squadron, they are ours and we are responsible for them. One of the pilots will be the maintenance officer. In the Air Force, the wing owns the aircraft and maintains them, the squadron checks them out from the wing and returns them after flights. The squadron and the pilots are disconnected from the maintenance.

There are good reasons for both systems. The Navy has space constrains onboard ships, so multitasking of personnel is necessary. Air Force has big bases and can afford this luxury. It does make the pilots less aware of what is up with their aircraft on the downside.

dogpilot wrote:There is a difference in how the Navy and the Air Force maintains aircraft. In the Navy we maintain aircraft within the squadron, they are ours and we are responsible for them. One of the pilots will be the maintenance officer. In the Air Force, the wing owns the aircraft and maintains them, the squadron checks them out from the wing and returns them after flights. The squadron and the pilots are disconnected from the maintenance.

There are good reasons for both systems. The Navy has space constrains onboard ships, so multitasking of personnel is necessary. Air Force has big bases and can afford this luxury. It does make the pilots less aware of what is up with their aircraft on the downside.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this...I just retired from the Air Force last year, spent most of it in maintenance. I was ALWAYS in the flying squadron as a maintainer. The Air Force has done it the way you describe, a few different times over the years, but never sticks with it. There may be some bases that still operate that way. None of us ever liked it, pilots or maintainers, when we tried it. I loved being in the actual unit with the aircraft and pilots. One thing you're spot on, our maintenance officer was just that, not a pilot. I think maybe the heavies currently operate with maintenance in a separate squadron. I spent most of my time on fighters. When I was on C-5s I was assigned to the flying squadron then as well, but we did have a separate maintenance squadron that did the majority of stuff, but the aircraft still belonged to the flying squadron. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the USAF doesn't fully operate that way.

Well, since I mostly felt with the big aircraft, mainly EW world, it would be where my impressions come from. It makes me feel better that not all of them are disconnected. On our fitness reports, our flying is only one of 22 blocks and being a pilot is actually considered a collateral duty, not your job. You cannot gain command if you haven't been a maintenance officer or at least a division officer, like Airframes or Engines. Or if you do, it is very non-standard. Failure with maintenance is one of the leading causes for removal from command, so having that punch on your ticket is a big part of your command screening.

There is a command line tied only to only maintenance in the Navy, it is the AEDO (Aviation Engineering Duty Officer) community, but that is what is called Restricted Line. It is mostly concerned with Depot maintenance, testing and acquisition of new aircraft and systems. It was my community when I finally transferred to NOAA. We don't do organizational maintenance or get attached to squadrons, we work for Navairsyscom. The fun laid back part of the Navy.

More to the main subject, talking to the press, unless the public affairs guys push you in front of them (with a briefing), is a form of seppucku. Once, when I was a Ltjg, I spoke with a Navy Times reporter about bonuses they where paying to officers at the time. It wasn't an interview, I was tasked with driving the twit around. He didn't mention me by name in the article, but since we only had 6 junior officers in the squadron, it didn't take the NSC to figure out who it was. I had to do a carpet dance. It wasn't even about anything I said, it was I said anything at all. The word was loud and clear, never, ever, ever talk to the press. Make nothing more than grunting noises around them.

My lifelong buddy went into the USAF directly out of HS. Was navigation avionics tech on F-111. I asked him one time about a unique feature they highlighted on a military aircraft show that was aired on TV. He smiled and said something to the effect of "huh, what's that?". Asshole. . He got the ride in it shortly before they decommissioned the aircraft.

Dogpilot,

My daughter-in-law is an engineer for Northrop-Grumman in St.Augustine, Fl where they build the latest version of the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye and they have a contingent of U.S.Naval Officers attached to the plant. She will only say the new version has up dated electronics and engines with 5 composite propeller blades. It looks like the plane will be part of the navy for a long time and they are building a version for several countries. It's interesting to note she said when the French Navel (a customer) contingent is in house they have to cover everything on their desk because of "roaming eyes". The pride she displays when we see one fly over is great.

BayBob

Loose Lips do sink ships. Congressman May should have been shot and this is why an elected official is the last person that should know important stuff. http://www.ww2pacific.com/congmay.html

Tim

Baypilot,
Some designs never die. The E2 has been in around since the early 60's. The Officers she spoke of are NAVPROs, or program officers. I was a program officer and test pilot for the NARF, Naval Air Rework Facility. My projects where: E2, C2, H46, H53, and cats & dogs (anything that the Navy had a one off of). One of my buddies here in Flagstaff, the head of the Naval Observatory, was also a Hummer driver has just bought a Waco cabin biplane. We where talking about how the E2 was one of the most difficult aircraft we ever flew, just last night. It was completely unstable in all axis. This was a result of a shortening of the fuselage after development, to fit on the center deck elevators. It was massively overpowered, made huge quantities of electricity to power the systems, 32 miles of wire and took nearly a year to learn to fly and operate. Electrical fires where spectacular, looking like a version of Star Trek with sparks and arc bolts going back and forth in the cabin.

I can sympathize with the F22 guys. During the 3 years I test flew, I got the record for field arrestments at NAS North Island. Testing a hugely complicated aircraft that has just come out of 263 days of rework, led to compound emergencies that where not supposed to happen. There where individual aircraft I had to put my foot down and not re-test that had defects and the corrective action was not to my liking. My, skipper at the NARF asked me why I always brought them back, when any sane person would jump out (he was not a pilot). While I could get my crew out for bailout, the pilot would never make it. Remember, the aircraft was unstable, so I would never make it down the 18' tunnel, past all the arcing electronics, to the bailout door. We don't loose a lot of E2s in ops, but one went down in the Indian Ocean last year. Usual scenario, crew made it, pilot died, he had no place but water to go (the ditching scenario is not pretty).

The E2D mods are impressive, not to pat myself on the back, but they finally are incorporating one of my major mods, which I wrote a paper outlining. The engine system is also a result of issues we brought up. The E2 can't refuel, but one must stay aloft at all times. So to extend its endurance, we tried fitting inflight refueling probes. We mounted it over the cockpit, extending forward. The nose, being kind of blunt, made a bow wave that would push the basket away. If you got too aggressive and tried to kind of ram the basket to punch through the bow wave, it would get into a flow pattern that went around the fuselage and into one of the props (usually the right one). We gave up. So the new engine/prop combo burns about 1/3 less fuel, giving 3 more hours, better than nothing. The system mods are nothing short of amazing.

The F22 is quite an amazing aircraft as well. I bid a project with Lockheed to do the service life testing on the stress fuselage. It involved drilling out over 20,000 fasteners and NDT testing the holes for cracks. So I am very familiar with the structure, which is über cool. I think they just need to go back to LOX generators we all have been using for decades now. End of problem.

I'll share your comments with her, she'll enjoy it, I know I did.

Thank you for your service.

BB

Can you give examples of "cats and dogs" you tested for the Navy?

Nothing to exciting. We didn't do the edge of the envelope type stuff. We where engineers, mod aircraft with new systems, test them to ensure they function and don't fall apart, which they occasionally did. So my weird is more like drone recovery H46's with rather extensive modifications. British Wessex, I did the project on the Kifir, not the flying, the Navy's F5 for aggressor squadrons. The F5 was a replacement for one that literally wore out. It was an avionics test bed for the Air Force and they gave it to us as it was really screwed up avionics wise. We pulled over 300 lbs of wire out of it and stripped it down, put our versions of the radios in it and off to the Top Gun guys to ruin it. Did a bunch of F4's for the Brits to replace their ones they sent to the Falklands. They where non-standard, they wanted the F4S avionics and moods, but no maneuvering slats. They retained the BLC (Blown Lift Control, blows bleed air over the wing to produce lift at low speeds). Then we did mods to factory new TF18's. They came with wing problems from the factory. We modded them tested them and dropped them off at NAS Lemoore.

We did all our flying Day VFR, naturally, and we still needed to get night and IFR time to stay current. We would try to ferry one or two a month to keep up. My favorite was to take the H46's to Yuma. Helos are loads of fun to explore with. There is an abandon rail line between San Diego and Yuma. It has a complex set of bridges and tunnels that spiral down the escarpment. Lots of railroad cars fell off into the valley. It was always fun to fly down the tracks at about 10' doing 150 kts.

At the facility there where only 5 pilots, 18 military and 5,500 civilians. So it was very relaxed. Most of the aircraft we tested where in primer with a big sequence number painted on the side. We did a lot of our work out at San Clemente Island, or off the Coronado Islands. During the June Gloom part of the year, we would go up in the mountains and use the secret mountain pads, not military secret, just nobody knows they exist. The big Helos need load to top the engines (set max power), you can do this at altitude or hook to a 10,000 lb block of cement. Altitude is better, you can always roll on the other engine if you have an issue. You have to pickle the block.

Stupid story about pickling a load. We where doing the aforementioned British F4's. We would go to Tucson and get a F4J from the desert storage, dismantle and truck it to North Island. This took weeks and involved a cast of thousands and ended up expensive. So I made the suggestion to pick them with an H53, since they where transiting in the general direction anyhow for another project. This could save big bucks for joe taxpayer. So a Marine H53D came over to our test line to practice picking a sample F4. We got him all hooked up and he lifted. We had photographers and video going, we wanted publicity. He transited over the channel by Pt Loma and then the F4 came off the line, he pickled it! It kind of glided straight down and missed a Tuna boat by about 40'. $hit, the tail was sticking out of the water like a lawn dart. Made for good reporting on the six o'clock news. We loved the quote " the Navy dropped a 'scrap' F4 on a practice mission today." Well it was scrap as soon as it hit the water! Turned out the aft canopy came open and whacked the long line and the crew chief did the safe thing and pickled it, he thought the escape system was going to activate.

I also had mundane projects, like figuring out how to re-paint composite aircraft. How do you get the old paint off? We settled on plastic media blasting. Cost 10's of million to make a paint facility to blast the old paint off, the beads fell through floor to a conveyer to be re-used. Only problem, this roughened the surface a bit and made a perfect keying surface for the next primer. Well it didn't come off so good the second time around. We had a leak on the #3 F18, it had a 30 second ground fire. We decided it was too much a bastard to expend much in fixing it. So we stripped it, drug it out to China Lake and shot it up to evaluate battle damage. We were never bored.