Gentlemen(I use the term loosely),

I need a place to start initial research on panel upgrades for my 59 Cessna 180B. I fly primarily in the mountains of ID, WY and MT with the occasional cross country trip(one a year). I will pursue an instrument rating at some point(don't know when) and really don't see myself flying IFR with this plane, ever............. unless the crap really hit the fan. If I was IFR rated I would only need to bust through a cloud layer on rare occasions and would not feel comfortable doing it, so......... I probably wouldn't.

I have all the old original steam gauges, an old kx radio that is no good twenty miles out on hot dust days, as well a transponder/encoder that is at least 100 ft off the last time I called center to check. The most up to date piece is the garmin aera 560. The above instruments did get me to Bahamas and back though...............

If this was your plane and your mission profile what would you put in, on or around the panel? I'm looking for simple, practical and light. I don't need bells and whistles. But I do want safety and some redundancy.........Also any comments on the ADSB instruments related to my panel would be appreciated.

Whats the most you put in this panel? Whats the least you would put in this panel?


Justin

Leave steam gauges, deep-six the old radios. Put in an electric AI if you're feeling flush. For VFR, hard to beat a good comm, transponder, and portable GPS.

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For VFR ops, just get a mini GA and be done with it.

http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html

I'll be interested to see what feedback you get as well. I'm just about to cut a new panel for my Maule and I think I have figured out what I'm going to do. I'm also going for light weight, straight VFR so should be relative to your mission.

I'm doing a 4 pack - airspeed, digital AI (with slip indicator), vertical speed and altimeter. A 796 gps, sl40 comm, gtx 327, intercom. An ei mvp-50 will replace all engine related stuff. And that's it.

I've decided to hold off on ads-b compliance for now. The likes of the navworks and freeflight ranger products will be easy "all in one" add ons at a later date that will work with the 327. Hopefully tech advancements and market competition will bring more products at a reasonable price as 2020 draws nearer.

Two questions:

1. What's your budget?

2. Are you thinking of using this plane to do the instrument rating in?

If I were doing this, all primary flight instruments would be replaced or overhauled....check cost.

I would choose one REALLY good multi function radio, like the Garmin all in ones....Comm, GPS, VOR, moving map.

MTV

RWM wrote:.....
I'm doing a 4 pack - airspeed, digital AI (with slip indicator), vertical speed and altimeter. ....

I'm curious which digital AI (with slip indicator) you're choosing.
I myself would go for a Dynon D2, has all the flight instruments in it.
From the original 6-pack, I would keep the airspeed & altimeter, but maybe lose the vert speed since the Dynon has that.
Here's a photo of my panel. I'm thinking of pulling the vacuum horizon & DG and installing a D2 in their place, probably keep the vert speed & turn coord/ball even though the D2 makes them redundant.
Radios are down below, simple Narco com & txp. Along with an intercom, those & the handheld GPS are all I need. I'm not gonna worry about ADS-B until I have to, Dec 31 2019, but I'll get the simplest cheapest one available that meets the requirements. I'm still hoping that mandate will go away but unfortunately that's doubtful.

Simple and basic.

gbflyer wrote:Leave steam gauges, deep-six the old radios. Put in an electric AI if you're feeling flush. For VFR, hard to beat a good comm, transponder, and portable GPS.

I agree. But would use a Dynon D2 or similar as opposed to an electric AI.

akgreg wrote:
Simple and basic.

I love, love, love your airplane, brother.

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm looking to do my panel as well.
Not sure what transponder I'm going with, but I really like the PAR200 radios. I also like the GRT mini. I'll be going with the JPI930 for engine monitoring and fuel guage. I'd like to dump the steam guage that I can to save weight.
I'd like to cut my panel out of carbon fiber to save a little weight, and I was thinking it may absorb some of the vibrations.
Good or bad plan??

David

The first decision that has to be made is whether a strictly VFR panel will be satisfactory for the entire time you own the airplane, or whether there will come a time when at least a minimal IFR panel will be required. It's a lot less expensive and more productive to at least plan for the future.

Here's what I suggest, if IFR is in the future. If they're still serviceable, keep the gyros for now. But if they start glitching (excessive precession of the DG, failure to right itself for the AI, failure to indicate turns for the T&B or turn coordinator), then replace them as that happens. An all-in-one GPS/nav/com makes good sense; a certified used Garmin 430W fills that bill, capable of flying all GPS approaches, as well as all other approaches. If the transponder, encoder, and pitot system haven't been checked, that needs to be done, and it needs to be done every 2 years. While I've flown a lot with only one nav/com in various airplanes, it's really comforting to have a second one as a backup, and in busy areas, it makes life a lot easier. A decent audio panel to tie all that together with a good intercom built in makes traveling with passengers much easier.

If VFR is all you want, then in addition to the required VFR instrumentation, you should have a navcom, because you still need to navigate. Sure, you can do it with pilotage and ded reckoning, but using the airways is a lot easier. A good handheld GPS with a moving map is great. But still be prepared to navigate without GPS, especially because of the repetitive testing that is being done in various places in the country. Just in the last few months, testing which affects wide areas centered on Alamogordo, Boise, and Pueblo have potentially impacted where I fly, and I suspect that there are other areas of the country similarly impacted.

Cary

Here's what I did...although I think your '59 panel is slightly different than my '58. This is basic VFR with some "get me out of trouble" gyros....no Nav instruments. I could've gotten rid of most of my 2-1/4" instruments if I would've sprung for the EI CGR-30....next time. Be careful thinking this will be just a quick panel upgrade...things have a way of getting out of hand with these kind of projects...ask me how I know

What's the most I would install? Go for a minimalist IFR panel. Then you can do your training.

GTN650 is the hub. You could buy a used GNS430W, but spring for a new one. The 430 is good, but discontinued. You'll spend enough on labor for this project, don't cheap out with past generation, used materials.

A new Garmin com. Add Nav if you want, but you don't need it. You'll only ever use one Nav, and it's in the GTN650. If you're thinking redundancy, think portable Nav-com. Really, you don't even need the second com. It's just nice to have. Stick with the Garmin, because it can cross fill frequencies from the GTN650 database.

If you do go with a second com, then you'll need an audio panel. Ps engineering integrated audio panel and intercom is the way to go. Garmin makes a nice one to compete that has the auto squelch function. You can choose it if Garmin is offering a package deal.

Buy a Garmin 330ES transponder. ADS-B compliant. Sooner is better for the flight following, and other paybacks that it offers.

A GDL39, 3D optional, and any Garmin Aera that you like that will display ADS-B data.

Stick with your old ELT. Carry a SPOT or In Reach. Your ADS-B transponder will also leave a breadcrumb trail.

Engine instruments are a separate subject. You could economize here, or go big. Depends on how much info you want. If you're carbureted, don't go overboard. Fuel flow is the biggest nice to have,. Tie it to your GPS. cht and egt are good to have. The rest are nice to have. If you're a real gear head, you'll go big.

If you have a lot of gyro trouble, you can consider some glass EFIS options later.

Sticking to all Garmin allows the avionics to integrate best. The wiring is dead simple. There are data cables that connect all the integration features. I'm not sure of the benefit these days with what Garmin has done with data cables, but ask your installer to help you evaluate Approach Sytems Fast Stack Hub.

You asked for a more elaborate idea for your solution. This is one you can consider.

THANK YOU!! Learning more by the minute here. All great ideas.

Whats the bottom line on the these "portable" EFIS, AI, PFD like the GRT mini 4.3, Dynon D2 in certified aircraft etc etc? Gimic screens for digital inflight feed back on Alt, vertical speed etc or would you really fly through a cloud layer with one......? "The Mini-GA is not certified and cannot be used as a primary or back-up." is that legal jargon?? My old gauges are shot.......The battery issue bothers me? Or is this not a problem if you pay attention and keep a cig light charger plugged into it?

This rabbit hole could go deep.

This is what I'm working with. Don't mind the the disconnected right yoke. It was the left yoke until it broke during take off where the duct tape is. (Another story for the what all most killed you forum). The yokes have since been replaced with black powder coated metal 185 versions. If you have these old plastic yokes with a push to talk switch drilled through...............Replace them!

Here you go...it's only money.

Seriously though...
Given the flying that you do, I'd just replace your steam gages with the same...maybe upgrade to a solid state AI or a Sandia 340. No doubt others will (vehemently) disagree, but there is no point in getting an IFR license if you're not going to regularly file IFR and fly approaches. 20 hours of hood work and some actual with an instructor will give you the ability to control your aircraft to IFR standards while flying on the clocks if you have to. For that your basic six pack and a GPS are more than adequate, providing they all work. Something like a Garmin 696 with satellite weather and terrain avoidance will HELP keep you out of accidental IFR and make navigating easier if you end up in it.

The rest of the IFR training is a gigantic waste of time and money if you're not going to use it. Just staying IFR current is a big expense and not really that fun when you're the one paying for the gas. Where you fly, IFR is pretty impractical since you're in ice at IFR altitudes most of the year. Smoke is the exception, but for that you just need to be able to fly the clocks, not file and talk to Center. If you end up upgrading nav/com radios to IFR standards and then don't use them, that's more wasted money. How often to you even talk on the radio? A good radio is really important in class C and B, but how often are you there? I talk as little as possible in the backcountry...it's annoying.

Panels get expensive FAST, and unless you have $100k to put into your panel everything you get will be a compromise because there's something soooo much better available for just a few extra pounds of hundred dollar bills.

I think it's important to have working attitude instruments and to be able to fly on them with confidence, even in a VFR airplane. Past that I think there are a lot of diminishing returns on hard earned dollars.

The great thing about the PAR200 is that it is a comm, audio panel (with Bluetooth connectivity), and intercom all in a regular size comm unit. It uses a remote box for the comm and you can wire a second one in if you'd like. Cutting one hole instead of 3 or 4 keeps things a lot neater. I am also pretty sure that it can also be wired to a garmin handheld so your frequencies can be switched from the Garmin.

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glacier wrote:Lay out could be tough for your panel. It is nice to have all the engine gauges together and you have a lot of individual 2.25 inch units. Balancing that space requirement with a nice arrangement for the flight instruments, radio and gps could be where you end up spending a lot of time and effort.

Oh god...don't start moving stuff around!!! Not if you want to fly anytime in the next 12~16 months.

Nothing wrong with where your instruments are located, even for IFR flying. My primary flight instruments (and engine instruments) are slung randomly all over the panel and I got my IFR ticket in that plane without any problem at all. You just learn a custom scan, that's all.

As to flying "through a layer" with one of the portable units: ONLY IF THE STEAM GUAGES WORK, would be my response. Flying actual IFR, even for a few minutes, is a very vulnerable situation. I use my ipad and portable gps while IFR, but I'd never go there without certified attitude instruments. Staking your life on something that plugs into a cigar lighter isn't an acceptable risk to my way of thinking.

180lamb wrote:

I think I would lose the big old AN horizon, and the old drum-type DG, and mount a Dynon D2 where the horizon is now. Cover plate to replace the DG, or clean things up by relocating the compass from the windshield mount to the old DG hole. Otherwise the panel looks good.

Looks like a TKM / Mitchel com radio? Not the greatest, maybe replace it with something newer. I installed an Icom A200 in my last airplane and really liked it, it's been superceded by the A210 which is probably a good one also. Or go Garmin.

The txp might be OK, my guess is that the encoder just needs adjustment. You can do this yourself if you don't tell anyone, or be legit and get a VFR transponder certification (as required every two years by the regs) at an avionics shop. If anything needs replacement I'm sure they'll tell you. If possible I would hold off on replacing the txp until they get the ADS-B stuff all figured out, so you can get something which will do ADS-B or at least be compatible with whatever ADS-B gizmo you end up buying.