Backcountry Pilot • New Prop for C180

New Prop for C180

Lycoming, Continental, Hartzell, McCauley, or any broad spectrum drive system component used on multiple type.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:01 pm

New Prop for C180

Hi Everybody,

I know similar topics pop up from time to time, but I am solely interested
in Data from folks who have gone the 2 blade way on stock O-470s (a J in my case).

I am NOT interested in 3 blade, PPonk, IO 550 etc. conversions.

My Hartzell (A2VF-1A hub, V8833-2 blades) is affected by a 5 year/500hr AD and since I am flying a fair amount
I see no sense in going through this costly ordeal every 2 years.

I do some short field stuff, but am also interested in excellent cruise performance.
My fairly lightweight 180 (1550lbs.) has a strong running 600hr. engine and the airframe has no STOL mods.
With 8.50-10 tires I regularly see 130-135KTAS.
My climb rate through 5000ft MSL is 1000+ ft/min. and at 10000ft MSL I still see in the neighborhood of 700ft/min.
Reaching 17k+ MSL. is no issue.

I am thinking about going the McCauley BlackMac STC route, but would be really interested in some Numbers from folks who have walked this path before.

Blade length is one of my concerns.
I see the advantage of swinging a 88" for improved short field performance and climb rate, but am also somewhat concerned that this might carry some cruise performance penalty.
Then on the other side my motor only turns 2550 rpm max., so even the 88" blades will stay easily in the .88-.92 Mach range.

Enough said.....All your inputs will be highly appreciated.

Cheers
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:37 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

For what it's worth....and we rarely have apples to apples, but here was my experience.

I had a '55 model and it was time for an engine change. It was making good power, but was way timed out and I decided to do a firewall forward for more restoration reasons than purely engine. I had the J, with your same prop. That plane was fast and light (like yours) and did just a hair over book numbers (similar to yours).

I swapped to an o-470-U (230 HP). Not recommending you swap engines....it just demanded a propeller swap in my case. Anyways, I had to do the prop and went with a Mac C204 in 82". I'm told the blade design is similar to the C203 but with a different hub for the "u" engine. it was an immediate gain in cruise. I could not tell any difference in take off or climb...but certainly didn't hurt by my numbers before and after (take off distance). It was a legit 145 (plus) knot plane with that prop and 8.00's. I tried to put the seaplane prop on it, but it was not allowed with the STC.

With your case, I'd get the C203 Mac 88". My bet is that you'll pick up some climb and probably be neutral on cruise.

Bill
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:53 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

Long doesn't necessarily equal better... There are some down sides, but if I were to do it again, I'd still go with the 2 blade MT. Lighter, better ground clearance, more thrust, quieter, and spools up instantaneously.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

bigrenna wrote:Long doesn't necessarily equal better... There are some down sides, but if I were to do it again, I'd still go with the 2 blade MT. Lighter, better ground clearance, more thrust, quieter, and spools up instantaneously.


Thanks for your response.
Would you have some data?

MT is asking $14000 (incl. new governor and spinner and shipping);
I've flown behind MTs and I love them, but 14k.....I am sorry.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:03 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

You can use the same gov I believe...
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

I didn't touch the governor when I switched from an 88 inch Mac to the MT.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

I have a 56 that I changed from an 82 in McCauley to an 88 in. It greatly improved the hole shot and I gained 2 knots in cruise at my normal settings. Keep in mind that it was an old 82 and I don't know how it would compare to a new 82 but I can tell you, I have no regrets going to an 88.

Wayne
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

180Marty wrote:I didn't touch the governor when I switched from an 88 inch Mac to the MT.


My mistake.
The nearly 14K was without governor...you guys are correct.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

would you have some before and after numbers?
TAS, climb rate, takeoff roll.

Thanks
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

I replied to your post on the C180/185 Club site.
Here it is again...
I went from a short (80-1/2") 82" C203 on my 470K equipped 53 model, to a full-length 88" C201.
No hard numbers, but better takeoff & climb, same apparent cruise.
Bought a run-out core for a grand, spent $4300 to overhaul it & convert the hub to oil-filled, sold the old prop for $1200, for a net cost of $4100. New 88" Macs are mid-$8K's, including new spinner. I was quoted about $13K (plus crating & shipping) for a 2-blade MT.
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:55 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

hotrod180 wrote:I replied to your post on the C180/185 Club site.
Here it is again...
I went from a short (80-1/2") 82" C203 on my 470K equipped 53 model, to a full-length 88" C201.
No hard numbers, but better takeoff & climb, same apparent cruise.
Bought a run-out core for a grand, spent $4300 to overhaul it & convert the hub to oil-filled, sold the old prop for $1200, for a net cost of $4100. New 88" Macs are mid-$8K's, including new spinner. I was quoted about $13K (plus crating & shipping) for a 2-blade MT.


Thanks for your response.
Yes, same MT quote for me. Including shipping around $13700 and if I wanted nickel edge protection this would bump it up another $1000 or so.
What I am looking at right now is the Mac D2A34C203 / 90DCA-2 (88"). Sadly it supposedly needs a different governor...another $1000.
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:03 am

Re: New Prop for C180

I could be wrong on this but worth checking into.
I have a buddy that bought an MT. Decided he didn't like it for various reason.
Decided he'd sell it only to find out they won't sell anyone the stc without buying a new prop.
Although they did offer to buy back the nearly new prop for about half price.
So if he wants to sell it his market is tiny including experimentals.
He may fill us in on more or where in wrong.
Just something to check on before considering that bill.
I have the 203/204 88" prop and I'm not thrilled with it compared to others I've had. It's ok.
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:34 am

Re: New Prop for C180

Decided he'd sell it only to find out they won't sell anyone the stc without buying a new prop.
Although they did offer to buy back the nearly new prop for about half price.

That's interesting. I guess if I bought a better airframe, there'd be no transferring.
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:14 am

Re: New Prop for C180

Mudder wrote:....[/u]My Hartzell (A2VF-1A hub, V8833-2 blades) is affected by a 5 year/500hr AD and since I am flying a fair amount I see no sense in going through this costly ordeal every 2 years.....


I just looked through the C180 TCDS, several hartzell props listed for the early models but they all have HC hub numbers. Is that A2VF a three-blade?

Curious which governor you have? The TCDS indicates which governors are allowed with the various McCauley props. I don't see an approval for the C203 prop on a J engine in the TCDS. The C201 on my K-powered 53 model is installed via STC #SA388NW, held by North Sound Aviation (Jim Hayton), but covers installation on a K or L engine-- not a J. I assume whoever's quoting the C203 prop to you has approval also-- STC or whatever. FWIW the approved governors on this STC are the Woodward 210345, 210105, & A210452; the Garwin 34-828-01; or the McCauley C290D2/T-1 or C290D3/T-1. Most of these are also listed on the C180 TCDS (starting with the G model) as approved for the C201 & C203 props.
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

When I bought the 88 inch Mac brand new in 1999, it came with a chrome spinner and a brand new governor. As I remember, the paper work said it could be used on A,J,K,R and S 470's. As I remember it cost $6200 from the shop in Boise and they had it on hand and shipped airfreight immediately. The guys at Minneapolis had just condemned my Hartzell and said they could get a new 88 inch and it would only cost something over $8,000. Was glad I made the phone call!!!!
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:28 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

Thanks guys.
All very helpful.
Just got off the phone with McCauley's Chris Bell and he pointed out the possible issues with the 2A34C203 88" approval for non amphibian.
Let's see what Rocky Mountain Propellers comes up with.

I've never worked with this shop ..... any inputs, comments, reviews?
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:53 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

Mudder wrote:....Just got off the phone with McCauley's Chris Bell and he pointed out the possible issues with the 2A34C203 88" approval for non amphibian.....


I can see ground clearance might be an issue, can you elaborate on what other issues he pointed out?

Never had any dealings with Rocky Mtn prop, but I've very pleased with the service I've gotten from Mike Worden at AC Prop in Seattle. If you end up having to do business long distance, you should give him a call.
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:44 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

Mudder wrote:Thanks guys.
All very helpful.
Just got off the phone with McCauley's Chris Bell and he pointed out the possible issues with the 2A34C203 88" approval for non amphibian.
Let's see what Rocky Mountain Propellers comes up with.

I've never worked with this shop ..... any inputs, comments, reviews?


Check the type certificate data sheet. 88 should be approved for land plane, amphibian, float plane, ski plane for that make an model. Certainly thousands running around. Also, the later K models with the U engine had 90" seaplane props. No issues at all.

Bill
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Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:45 pm

Re: New Prop for C180

fiftynineSC wrote:
Mudder wrote:Thanks guys.
All very helpful.
Just got off the phone with McCauley's Chris Bell and he pointed out the possible issues with the 2A34C203 88" approval for non amphibian.
Let's see what Rocky Mountain Propellers comes up with.

I've never worked with this shop ..... any inputs, comments, reviews?


Check the type certificate data sheet. 88 should be approved for land plane, amphibian, float plane, ski plane for that make an model. Certainly thousands running around. I think the TCDS actually calls out the C203 88" as being approved. Also, the later K models with the U engine had 90" seaplane props. No issues at all.

Bill
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Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:18 am

Re: New Prop for C180

hotrod180 wrote:
Mudder wrote:....[/u]My Hartzell (A2VF-1A hub, V8833-2 blades) is affected by a 5 year/500hr AD and since I am flying a fair amount I see no sense in going through this costly ordeal every 2 years.....


I just looked through the C180 TCDS, several hartzell props listed for the early models but they all have HC hub numbers. Is that A2VF a three-blade?

Curious which governor you have? The TCDS indicates which governors are allowed with the various McCauley props. I don't see an approval for the C203 prop on a J engine in the TCDS. The C201 on my K-powered 53 model is installed via STC #SA388NW, held by North Sound Aviation (Jim Hayton), but covers installation on a K or L engine-- not a J. I assume whoever's quoting the C203 prop to you has approval also-- STC or whatever. FWIW the approved governors on this STC are the Woodward 210345, 210105, & A210452; the Garwin 34-828-01; or the McCauley C290D2/T-1 or C290D3/T-1. Most of these are also listed on the C180 TCDS (starting with the G model) as approved for the C201 & C203 props.


No 3 blade....A2(...)>>2 blade.
The Hartzell application guide 159 lists exactly this prop under Cessna TC 5A6.
The prop TC is P24EA.

The governor is a Woodward and the prop is counterweighted which sadly requires a new governor ($1900).

The McCauley application guide (http://www.mccauley.textron.com/MAG.pdf) lists the 2A34C203/90DCA-2 as an STC'd application on page B-80. Northwest Propeller holds the STC (SA2229CE) which funny enough only lists the O-470A engine but approves the prop for landplane use.

Maybe I am reading things wrong.
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