Backcountry Pilot • No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

hotrod150 wrote:I've known quite a few pilots who got their instrument rating but then let their skills lapse. Either their own airplane wasn't IFR equipped, or else they just didn't keep IFR current because it wasn't convenient or because they didn't enjoy it. IMHO these guys are in more danger than an admittedly VFR-only pilot like me, because in the back of their mind, they feel like they have this ace-in-the-hole instrument rating which can save them if they fly into the muck. But if & when it happens, they're just as likely as me to get disoriented & dead. Look at how many IFR rated pilots are involved in VFR-into-IMC crashes.
That's one of the reasons I have never pursued an instrument rating-- that's not the kind of flying I want to do, so I don't think I'd keep current and proficient.


Hotrod - you live in Port Townsend, WA? I spent a year in Bremerton several decades ago, and I remember there were a heckuva lot of IMC days, especially in winter. Nothing like the Southwest where I'm at now. WA seems like a place where an instrument ticket would be pretty cost-effective.

In any case, I don't know why there are so many VFR-into-IMC accidents involving instrument rated pilots. Obviously, staying current on attitude flying skills is important, and just having the ticket is not the solution to safe flying.

But the problem of flying VFR-into-IMC is not limited to spatial disorientation. Even if you have pretty good attitude flying skills on the gages, you still have to avoid flying into terrain. In many if not most instances of VFR-into-IMC, the pilot is trying to stay VFR as long as possible, "scud running" and necessarily staying low and, if in mountainous terrain, maneuvering between peaks, ridges, canyon walls, whatever until the pilot finally enters the soup. At that point, he's not really "instrument flying" in the sense of observing MEAs, MDAs, or following published instrument approach procedures to an ILS entry. At that point - close to terrain and in the soup - he's in deep shit, no matter how good his instrument skills are.

Other issues involved in VFR-into-IMC include icing, and running into embedded T-storms - neither of which has anything to do with attitude flying skills.

If the pilot is reasonably current and competent in flying on the gages, and is legal to do so, then the smart thing to do (other than staying on the ground) when the clouds are low is to call Center and file IFR, then fly high above the rocks ... in most instances, except for takeoff, climb, and descent, he'll be flying over the top anyway, and the only time he has to fly in the soup is climbing through the layer and then again eventually when he descends back through the layer to his destination. Unless you've got FIKI equipment or are flying in the tropics, it's not smart to fly for extended periods in the soup.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

I used to have a link to an ATC audio of a controller who actually managed to talk an IMC'd pilot back into straight and level.
The pilot was flat terrified.
Guy is also recorded talking on the phone a little later to ...flight service, iirc and said he thought sure he was dead!

It was a heckuva recording.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

nmflyguy wrote:
GumpAir wrote:Huge psychological difference in wearing the hood with a CFI on a nice day, and being in the crud putting covers on failed gauges, knowing that if you can't keep the airplane upright you're gonna die in just a few minutes.

Gump


To back up Gump's point about vac gages being unreliable, I've owned my Cherokee for less than two years and it's already had two AI failures - one was a progressive failure (it got tired on cold mornings) ... and the other one (involving the replacement for the former) was sudden, but at least it happened on the ground during taxi to the runway.


Was returning from a wedding in Florida with the whole family onboard Sunday in IMC when the AI didn't quite jive with the TBI. Watched for a second and the thing started to shake then fell over. Had to cover it while being bounced around in the clouds and rain. Made an ILS into Lakefront in New Orleans partial panel. This is the second failure in two years. The first being the vacuum pump. The failures do happen which means they most surely will happen when you need it the least.

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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

Just a thought but my AH and all the rest of my six PAC is electric in my cirrus and in ten years none have failed ( knock on wood) it may not be an option for everyone but if a person can get away from the vacuum pumps I think they are ahead.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

Blu wrote:Just a thought but my AH and all the rest of my six PAC is electric in my cirrus and in ten years none have failed ( knock on wood) it may not be an option for everyone but if a person can get away from the vacuum pumps I think they are ahead.


But it's like my all-electric home.... a power failure & nothing works. Vacuum DG & AH combined with electric T&B gives some redundancy in case of either electric or vacuum failure.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

hotrod150 wrote:
Blu wrote:Just a thought but my AH and all the rest of my six PAC is electric in my cirrus and in ten years none have failed ( knock on wood) it may not be an option for everyone but if a person can get away from the vacuum pumps I think they are ahead.


But it's like my all-electric home.... a power failure & nothing works. Vacuum DG & AH combined with electric T&B gives some redundancy in case of either electric or vacuum failure.


Hotrod - true, an electrical failure can (but not necessarily) cause loss of attitude instrumentation ... but the chances of an electrical failure are much smaller than for a vacuum system failure or a failure of the vac gage itself.

For one thing, you already have at least some redundancy in your electrical system (alternator plus battery, and some aircraft carry dual alternators) ... and electric gyros (let alone AHRS) have much longer time before failure (typically thousands or tens of thousands of hours vs. hundreds of hours) than do vac gyros.

And if you're really concerned about the risks above, you can always install one of those self-contained battery powered emergency backup gyros ("Lifesaver"). If you do a lot of flying in heavy weather (as opposed to occasionally taking off or landing through a layer), it's smart to have one of those in your panel.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

GumpAir wrote:
GlassPilot wrote:Don't worry about partial panel. Odds are very slim you'll lose any instruments the exact time you stray VFR into IMC. Just focus on the AI, reference the altimeter and DG from time to time and stay alive. Make wise choices on how high and which way to fly...


That is not true... Especially in colder climates.

Dry vacuum pumps are the shits, and I figured on losing a couple a year up north, and I always did. And cold weather eats gyros. Instrument failures can be real subtle.

Can't tell you the number of times I'd punch into the muck, with everything appearing normal on the scan at first, just to realize that the AI wasn't agreeing with the needle, with no warning flags dropped. It's a real "oh shit" moment trying to decipher which was FUBAR and which was telling the truth. Especially close to the ground. Then it's imperative to cover the bad gauge and go partial panel. We did LOTS of partial panel.

Gump



I was not speaking to the IFR pilot. Of course things break and you need to figure it out when it does and be proficient in partial panel.

I'm talking to the VFR pilot who strays into the clouds one day. He is not instrument rated and for him it's fine to focus on the AI. Expecting him to try to remember 10 minutes of partial panel training a couple years ago during a BFR is a pipe dream.

I stand by what I said. I wish you wouldn't quote me and then start with "that's not true". Say you disagree if you want but in this case I think I'm right. Nobody has ever strayed into IMC and lost a vacuum pump at the exact same time. And if they did then by gosh it was their time to go. More people would survive if they just focused on that AI and referenced the DG and Altimiter and maybe even stray to the radio to get help if they think they won't get over loaded.

Fly the plane...
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

GlassPilot wrote:I stand by what I said. I wish you wouldn't quote me and then start with "that's not true". Say you disagree if you want but in this case I think I'm right. Nobody has ever strayed into IMC and lost a vacuum pump at the exact same time. And if they did then by gosh it was their time to go.


Sorry... Let me rephrase that. I disagree. I have lost gyros and vacuum pumps within seconds of punching into IMC. And so have many other Alaska pilots and others I've flown with over the years. If the IFR pilot, or VFR only pilot stuck in IMC, can't quickly recognize and adjust for the failed gauge, the results will most likely be fatal.

As for "fly the plane," and use what equipment and training they have, for the VFR only pilot getting stuck in IMC. I agree completely.

Gump
Last edited by GumpAir on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No Wonder Non Instrument Pilots Die

I agree with that...the problem with VFR into IFR isn't relying on instruments that then fail...it is not relying on instruments. This is especially true of IFR rated pilots. Even a rusty IFR pilot should be able to keep right side up and an altitude if he would just start his scan. While the comments about high surrounding terrain are true (situational awareness) I think the studies show that most of these accidents are simply a loss of control. There is a big difference between planning, filing and flying into IFR and accidentally finding yourself in it. The question is how quickly will you admit you are there. Start your scan, then climb, communicate, confess and comply. Everyone will be happier.

Don't get an IFR rating. That's fine. But if you scud run VFR instead it will probably catch up to you.
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