Sad Day at the sea base, One fatal
Thursday 7/27/17
Our Condolences to Diane's family, Sauk Rapids Mn

Departing the sea base. Flap and elevator position ? AOA off a wave to stall ?
http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Seapla ... 82213.html

Terrible deal. That big lake can get mighty lumpy.

MTV

The pilot has now died.

I know next to nothing about Lakes, but when we had our splash-ins at Meredith Lake this past Spring and last year, I saw that each of the pilots flying Lakes (there were 2 last year and one this year) deployed partial flaps for take off. The photos of this accident show no flaps deployed. It also appeared in one of the pictures that something forced the nose to pitch up into the air pretty high--I couldn't tell if it was pilot action or as has been reported, a big wave.

Very sad.

Cary

Cary wrote:The pilot has now died.

I know next to nothing about Lakes, but when we had our splash-ins at Meredith Lake this past Spring and last year, I saw that each of the pilots flying Lakes (there were 2 last year and one this year) deployed partial flaps for take off. The photos of this accident show no flaps deployed. It also appeared in one of the pictures that something forced the nose to pitch up into the air pretty high--I couldn't tell if it was pilot action or as has been reported, a big wave.

Very sad.

Cary

Flaps are a normal part of takeoff for any airplane so equipped. That said, failure to deploy flaps prior to takeoff simply results in much longer takeoff runs, or in some airplanes, you just won't get airborne at all.

whatever the cause, truly horrible news and my thoughts go out to the familys of those involved

I've been holding back on this until my head was straight and I had time to collect all of my thoughts on the matter. My Oshkosh camping-mates work the seaplane base and were there when this occurred. There were a *lot* of things that happened here, and some that we won't know until NTSB finishes their investigation. But the short story is a lot of things happened that day, and that this was likely entirely preventable. These are the accounts that I recall from my conversation with friends who were there, not of my own witness.

Earlier in the day, the pilot was attempting to depart, and something happened during the take off that caused the wing to dig into the water. The pilot was unable to get the wing out of the water through the normal means, so the pilot kept the plane going in a circle (presumably at low speed) to keep from drifting into rocks (shoreline perhaps -- I don't know that I've seen any rocks in the middle anywhere). The safety crews got in the boats and sped out to assist. They were able to get the wing out of the water, and assisted the aircraft back to the docks so they could take a look at it.

The guy was eager to leave, but they suggested not until the plane was inspected in greater detail. At one point, he was moored to a buoy in the lagoon, and attempted to leave without untying from the moorings or with the assistance of the crews. They stopped him, of course. Not sure in which order of events this occurred, but it contributes to the state of mind the pilot was in.

Another friend (AP/IA, some Lake experience) mentioned that he didn't think the plane was sitting correctly in the water (water in the hull perhaps)? Again, they (pretty much anyone that had a voice) firmly suggested that he not leave because the aircraft wasn't in a confirmed airworthy state. He became angry and agitated and insisted he was going to leave. He proclaimed loudly (paraphrased), "You're telling me that you're going to keep me here and not allow me to leave?!" To which they replied that they can't do that, but they insisted that he not leave until the aircraft could be inspected and ensure that it was safe. The pilot asked one worker there how many hours he had flying, to which he replied with a number that indicated he was a very experienced aviator. The pilot then retorted with, "Well, I have XXX number hours more than you." The numbers aren't important, but the picture it paints certainly is.

Shortly afterward, he loaded up his plane with his passengers and departed, and the results of this event are known above. Hard to say what happened. The aforementioned speculation of water in the hull rushing backward and blowing out the CG? Only the Shadow knows.

Get-home-itis is real, and this person was certainly in no state of mind to be flying, nor was his aircraft. I'm only a 200-hour pilot, so I can't speak with much authority here. But don't ever assume you're better than you are. I'd think that if I had a dozen or so people telling me not to go, I might take a second look at the situation.

Side note, one of the divers suffered some pretty nasty chemical burns from the fuel in the water. He's not happy about the situation, either.

~Chris

Chris In Marshfield wrote:I've been holding back on this until my head was straight and I had time to collect all of my thoughts on the matter. My Oshkosh camping-mates work the seaplane base and were there when this occurred. There were a *lot* of things that happened here, and some that we won't know until NTSB finishes their investigation. But the short story is a lot of things happened that day, and that this was likely entirely preventable. These are the accounts that I recall from my conversation with friends who were there, not of my own witness.

Earlier in the day, the pilot was attempting to depart, and something happened during the take off that caused the wing to dig into the water. The pilot was unable to get the wing out of the water through the normal means, so the pilot kept the plane going in a circle (presumably at low speed) to keep from drifting into rocks (shoreline perhaps -- I don't know that I've seen any rocks in the middle anywhere). The safety crews got in the boats and sped out to assist. They were able to get the wing out of the water, and assisted the aircraft back to the docks so they could take a look at it.

The guy was eager to leave, but they suggested not until the plane was inspected in greater detail. At one point, he was moored to a buoy in the lagoon, and attempted to leave without untying from the moorings or with the assistance of the crews. They stopped him, of course. Not sure in which order of events this occurred, but it contributes to the state of mind the pilot was in.

Another friend (AP/IA, some Lake experience) mentioned that he didn't think the plane was sitting correctly in the water (water in the hull perhaps)? Again, they (pretty much anyone that had a voice) firmly suggested that he not leave because the aircraft wasn't in a confirmed airworthy state. He became angry and agitated and insisted he was going to leave. He proclaimed loudly (paraphrased), "You're telling me that you're going to keep me here and not allow me to leave?!" To which they replied that they can't do that, but they insisted that he not leave until the aircraft could be inspected and ensure that it was safe. The pilot asked one worker there how many hours he had flying, to which he replied with a number that indicated he was a very experienced aviator. The pilot then retorted with, "Well, I have XXX number hours more than you." The numbers aren't important, but the picture it paints certainly is.

Shortly afterward, he loaded up his plane with his passengers and departed, and the results of this event are known above. Hard to say what happened. The aforementioned speculation of water in the hull rushing backward and blowing out the CG? Only the Shadow knows.

Get-home-itis is real, and this person was certainly in no state of mind to be flying, nor was his aircraft. I'm only a 200-hour pilot, so I can't speak with much authority here. But don't ever assume you're better than you are. I'd think that if I had a dozen or so people telling me not to go, I might take a second look at the situation.

Side note, one of the divers suffered some pretty nasty chemical burns from the fuel in the water. He's not happy about the situation, either.

~Chris

Thanks for the extra details.

Your second to last paragraph (I bolded it) is very good. There's a tendency sometimes to think that if we have X hours, we're better than the next person who "only" has less than X hours. But a big part of safe flying isn't the number of hours or years but whether we have the skill and judgment to do the task at hand. Lots of hours can mean lots of different experiences that really do contribute to being a good, safe, experienced pilot; or it can mean lots of circuits around the same airport, or lots of time on auto pilot, without the experiences to develop the skills and background to be a safe pilot. Conversely, a low time pilot with good judgment and reasonable skills may very well be the better, safer pilot than the high timer.

In any event, this was a tragedy that may have been very likely preventable, as are most aviation accidents.

Cary

Cary wrote:
Thanks for the extra details.

Your second to last paragraph (I bolded it) is very good. There's a tendency sometimes to think that if we have X hours, we're better than the next person who "only" has less than X hours. But a big part of safe flying isn't the number of hours or years but whether we have the skill and judgment to do the task at hand. Lots of hours can mean lots of different experiences that really do contribute to being a good, safe, experienced pilot; or it can mean lots of circuits around the same airport, or lots of time on auto pilot, without the experiences to develop the skills and background to be a safe pilot. Conversely, a low time pilot with good judgment and reasonable skills may very well be the better, safer pilot than the high timer.

In any event, this was a tragedy that may have been very likely preventable, as are most aviation accidents.

Cary

+1

That's one thing I have always hated is the fact that everyone looks at hours. Really, what's important is decision-making and experience.

I had a friend, who despite having more hours, didn't really know much about x-wind landings because he never needed to make one. As a Kansas pilot, x-wind landings were lesson number 2 for me. However, I don't have any mountain time (YET!), so I wouldn't have that experience and no amount of flatland hours will get me that.

I hate it when these accidents happen, especially at OSH. I have heard people say that the airshow is dangerous, and that they don't
recommend going. They don't bother to look in to WHY the accidents happened.

Oh well, bad deal all around.