Backcountry Pilot

[z3skybolt offline]

As a general rule for most light aircraft, the flap setting that matches the number of degrees of deflection of an aileron at full deflection will be the flap setting that gives the most lift without excess drag.
So much for general rules because my 235 Maule's shortest T/O is with full flap IF I'm light and at low DA. The excess HP overcomes the excess drag
The ONLY reason that I can come up with to not set the flaps prior to the T/O roll is that flaps being down may block some airflow over the tail and may delay it from flying just a little bit. As has been mentioned the drag from flaps at slow airspeed is negligable. If your aircraft "pops" into the air as you pull flaps, it would have wallowed off even sooner if the flaps had been there to begin with. Nothing dynamic happens from popping flaps that makes an airplane jump into the air, if it jumps into the air, you delayed flap application for too long. Unless you know your aircraft so well that you can tell exactly when to pop flaps, your better off setting them prior to the T/O roll or just after the tail starts flying, in my opinion.
You'll think I'm crazy, but when your practicing short T/O's cover or ignore the airspeed indicator and start trying to "feel" when she is ready to fly.

A64,

I have the same experience with my M-5-210-C. Lightly loaded...I can extend full flaps, push the yoke full forward and THEN add full power. The tail comes up almost immediately...count "one potato, two potato, three pototo"....rotate. Ignore the airspeed which may have just begun to indicate.

As soon as the mains leave the ground I level in ground effect and let the speed build just a tad. Remaining in ground effect I retract the flaps to 20 degrees accelerate some more, begin climbing, fully retract the flaps and accelerate to normal climb speed.

When I first tried this .....a couple of times when I rotated the tail just came back down on the runway as I was too slow to fly although there was full elevator authority. After a bit of practice I got it down to a science.

What a performer. I can lift off in 300 ft., keep the flaps down, start an immediate 360 degree turn, remain within a 500 ft. radius of the take off point, land and stop within the first 250 ft. of the runway....without ever indicating over 55 mph. And yes....the red stall warning light does flash. All this at light weight, near standard day conditions and a paved surface of course.

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!! "

Bob

[pacerflyer offline]

Benton,

How do you like your stewart tips? That's the next mod I'm going to make. What kind of process was it to install them? Is there any fabric work that has to be done? What are the +/- of them?

Mike

[hotrod180 offline]

..........

What a performer. I can lift off in 300 ft., keep the flaps down, start an immediate 360 degree turn, remain within a 500 ft. radius of the take off point, land and stop within the first 250 ft. of the runway....without ever indicating over 55 mph.......

This sounds like the proverbial "take off and land in a football stadium" level of performance. You should try that some day...but not on game day, of course.
BTW, I checked the aileron/flap deflection on my 150TD today- the down deflection of the ailerons (at least the one I checked!) is about equal to the first notch of flaps ( 10 degrees per the POH, I didn't measure it). I take off with either 10 or 20 degrees of flaps, or do a "jump takeoff" starting at 10 & momentarily pulling on about 30 when it feels right. The jump takeoff is a bit of an improvement, but it's hard to tell much difference between the flaps-10 & flaps-20 takeoff. But the difference might be more apparent to a better stick than me.

Eric

[Benton offline]

How do you like your stewart tips? That's the next mod I'm going to make. What kind of process was it to install them? Is there any fabric work that has to be done? What are the +/- of them?

I just dropped a fairly un-scientific review into the 'Modifications' forum.

phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=3

If you have more questions about the installation process, send me a note (benton at siletzbay dot com) and I'll try to hook you up with the folks that did the work.

Benton 11jan09

[Benton offline]

I'm too dense to figure out how to quote prior posts, apparently, but...

In the upper-right corner of the post you'd like to quote, there's a button labeled 'Quote'. Click that.

Benton 11jan09

[obxbushpilot offline]

-Pulling flaps down will cause a nose-down pitching moment, so you need to coordinate the flap pull with some up elevator.

Hi Guys,

I'm new here, been lurking a while.

I am a Pacer driver too (and formerly a Clipper PA16 driver). Adding flaps on the Pacer actually causes the nose to rise. I know it sounds wrong, but the reason, I'm guessing, is the interuption of air flow over the tail that causes this. I've also owned a Cherokee and Twin Comanche and adding flaps cuased the nose to drop as you would expect, but the pacer is opposite. I found out the hard way. My buddy (student pilot) owns one too and was discussing this with me and I shot down the idea thinking he lacked the experience to know better. Then I bought my Pacer and had to remove the foot from mouth.

[highroad offline]

-Pulling flaps down will cause a nose-down pitching moment, so you need to coordinate the flap pull with some up elevator.

Hi Guys,

I'm new here, been lurking a while.

I am a Pacer driver too (and formerly a Clipper PA16 driver). Adding flaps on the Pacer actually causes the nose to rise. I know it sounds wrong, but the reason, I'm guessing, is the interuption of air flow over the tail that causes this. I've also owned a Cherokee and Twin Comanche and adding flaps cuased the nose to drop as you would expect, but the pacer is opposite. I found out the hard way. My buddy (student pilot) owns one too and was discussing this with me and I shot down the idea thinking he lacked the experience to know better. Then I bought my Pacer and had to remove the foot from mouth.

I fly a 1960 PA22/20 160 w/VG's. The flap handle is a reach, especially w/ shoulder harnesses. When flaps are lowered, the nose comes up.....When I reduce the power in the pattern, going to one notch of flaps usually trims the airplane without giving any up trim. Unconventional, but a Pacer thing.

I was extremely dissapointed in my Pacers takeoff performance until I started using 1st notch of flaps. Also, the tail does not come up with power like other Tail wheel airplanes I have flown. I have found that If I start the T.O. roll with generous forward trim and 1st notch flaps the tail comes up better....

I am still working on how soon to pull full flaps on takeoff, but I find that it comes off a lot better if I pull full flaps around 40-50 mph depending on weight of airplane. I also feel that when working off of a soft field, starting the roll with flaps gives a bit more lift and gets you up on top sooner.

I have a video posted of my pacer on the Roque river taking off of a gravel bar. You can see the airplane jump off the ground when I pull full flaps....Probably should of pulled sooner. I still have a lot to learn in the Pacer.

Brent

[shortfielder offline]

a64/hotrod 150

I think you will find the comment about the aileron deflection/flap setting in Sparky's book MFB

Gary

[cheerios2 offline]

mountain flying bible i think

[pacerflyer offline]

Brent,

I saw your vids and loved them. I can't tell you how happy I was to see a Pacer doing some real back country flying.

After practicing some of the techniques I read on this forum, I'm doing pretty much what your are for take off. Between 40 and 50 seems to be it. I am finding that like you said, adding generous forward trim will get the tail up quicker. I've been pushing the yoke forward right away, and maybe it's my imagination, but it seems to accelerate quicker also.

We have snow everywhere here so I'm doing everything on pavement now. I can't wait for spring so I can start practicing on a soft field.

Thanks again for posting the great vids.

Mike

[shortfielder offline]

One thing toc onsider when you push the yoke forward. The elevator goes down, and is a prime target for rocks being blown back by the prop.

Gary

[pacerflyer offline]

Thanks Gary, I hadn't thought of that. I don't think I'd like fixing holes in the fabric on the elevator.

Mike

[hotrod180 offline]

I don't know the legality of it, but what if ya put a double layer of fabric on the bottom of the elevator? Or even metalized the bottom?

[shortfielder offline]

I have metal on the bottom of my 180, and it gets some scars. In an arguement for fabric planes, I hear them say it is easier to fix fabric than metal.

This may start another debate

Gary

[Brian-StevesAircraft offline]

Contray to normal thought, you get very little rock damage from prop blast. The majority comes from landing. The tires are not rolling yet and touch down on everything but pavement, the non-rolling tires are splashing up rocks that the tail surfaces fly into.

Steve

[shortfielder offline]

That is why when I land on a dirt strip, I touch the ground once lightly with the mains to get them spinning, then land. The scars on my elevator are from the previous owner.

Gary

[mtv offline]

Don't even THINK about changing balanced control surfaces without consulting with an expert in this realm. It is possible, even on slow airplanes to induce flutter, and flutter is one of the most destructive forces around. I've experienced one elevator flutter event, and I DO NOT care to ever go there again.

I'm a bit confused by the suggestions that in "normal" airplanes, such as Cherokees, for example, the nose goes down when you apply flaps. We've got several Warriors, and ya know, every time you deploy flaps on one of them, the nose goes up...which is pretty typical of most light aircraft, I believe. Now, if you are holding the yoke or stick firmly as you apply flaps, you may be inducing a nose down force....

As to matching the flaps to the ailerons for takeoff, that's been a standard procedure for a LOT of years. I learned it in a Beaver, whose flap indicator was inop, as seems to be the case with most of them. It's a good procedure.

On the Pacer, if you are going to do wingtips, consider squaring off the wing with an additional rib bay outboard of the current tip, then add the tip. You'll gain a lot of wing area, and that is really the only thing the Pacer lacks. Great little airplane.

This mod has been done many times on Piper wings, SuperCubs (a bad idea there, in my opinion) Pacers, etc. Spar splice kits are available from Univair, methinks. Would probably have to be field approved, but there are a LOT of them out there.

MTV

[bush master offline]

MTV

Can you tell us more about the flutter you experianced?

Thanks Monte

[fern_hopper offline]

The owner of the rental Pacer I fly put some new wings on in the last year. Recently I have started flying it regularly again. I don't know the exact name of the wing mods, but vortex generators and stall fences were installed, along with some wing tips modifications. Also the wings seem wider then the stock pacer wings.

Been having trouble sticking good wheel landings; it seems like the Pacer now requires alot of forward pressure (almost to the stops) to raise the tail on take-off. Also landing seem to require almost immediate full forward yoke to keep the tail up. On both take-off and landing, anything less seems to get a "no-mans land, impending ground-loop feeling." It just doesn't feel natural.

I had about 150 hours of time with the stock wings. I was able to grease wheelies all day long with just slight forward trim on touchdown. Raising the tail on take-off only required a slight bump of forward pressure to raise the tail, so the way the plane flies now feels odd.

Different rigging on the new wings? Or do I just need more practice? Any of you Pacer drivers have any similar experiences?

Thanks,

Matt

[EZFlap offline]

but reaching down for the flap lever and maintaining directional control was very hard to do and could be dangerous in a narrow wooded strip.

pacerflyer please contact me offline via PM or via e-mail at info )at( ezflaphandle )dot( com . There is a much safer, higher performance solution to the problem you mention above. That extra STOL takeoff performance you mentioned (which as you said you had to given up in the name of safety) can be reclaimed.