Hello all,

I am considering a 58 C182a that was recently brought back to annual and was sitting since 2013 with a pickled engine. I fellow friend who owns a 61 C182 says I should be warry for a few reasons.

1st no way to make sure the engine was pickled as stated.

2nd he says pickled engines work fine for a short period but then over time develop leaks due to the dried out seals and such.

I think I can try and get more concrete info on the 1st point but would like some advice on the 2nd if anyone knows this to be a common trait of putting a pickled engine back in service. Engine is an O-470L and at time of pickle was 350 SMOH

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

There are a few ways of "pickling" an engine. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to figure out what was "supposedly" done. I would be more concerned about who overhauled the engine (What exactly was replaced). Where was the plane stored while it was out of service? Was it 6 years in the weeds in Florida, then the last couple years in a climate controlled hangar? Or the full 7 years covered in dust in a hangar in Arizona. Too bad the plane was brought back into annual before you got interested - The first step would have been to scope the inside of the block through the oil fill for any sign of surface rust, next step would have been to scope cylinder walls for signs of rust - Both steps before ever attempting to start or even rotating prop. Now you are limited to attempting to "see" any trace of pitting on the lifters or cam as any surface rust would be washed out now. Dryed out seals would be the least of any worry. As with really any engine - always going to be a gamble. Just a little/lot more with this one. You could pull six cylinders and check every lifter and cam lobe to be sure - but then your opening your risk for dislodged engine bearings and issues from reassembly.

Mark Y. wrote:There are a few ways of "pickling" an engine. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to figure out what was "supposedly" done. I would be more concerned about who overhauled the engine (What exactly was replaced). Where was the plane stored while it was out of service? Was it 6 years in the weeds in Florida, then the last couple years in a climate controlled hangar? Or the full 7 years covered in dust in a hangar in Arizona. Too bad the plane was brought back into annual before you got interested - The first step would have been to scope the inside of the block through the oil fill for any sign of surface rust, next step would have been to scope cylinder walls for signs of rust - Both steps before ever attempting to start or even rotating prop. Now you are limited to attempting to "see" any trace of pitting on the lifters or cam as any surface rust would be washed out now. Dryed out seals would be the least of any worry. As with really any engine - always going to be a gamble. Just a little/lot more with this one. You could pull six cylinders and check every lifter and cam lobe to be sure - but then your opening your risk for dislodged engine bearings and issues from reassembly.

Thank you for the info. I will reach out to the seller to get more info on how it was pickled. Will also get info on where and how it sat during the 13 years. When I asked him about pickling I asked if it was just fogged and he said, much more extensive than that. He said all cylinders were filled with a preservative oil as well, but I now want to know more.

Ah, I thought it only sat for 7 years, since 2013, Honestly if it sat for a whole 13 years - It would be run out value at best IMO. Pickled, dry location or not. That's a LONG time. Cylinders are relatively cheap, oiled up cylinders or not isn't a huge deal. The cam/lifter pitting is the huge money.

Mark Y. wrote:Ah, I thought it only sat for 7 years, since 2013, Honestly if it sat for a whole 13 years - It would be run out value at best IMO. Pickled, dry location or not. That's a LONG time. Cylinders are relatively cheap, oiled up cylinders or not isn't a huge deal. The cam/lifter pitting is the huge money.

Whoops I made a mistake. It was 7 years.. I accidently put 13 because it sat since 2013... Does 7 years make it any better of a gamble? Any questions I can ask this guy to get better info?
Marc

It really is a crap shoot. Has the engine been ran now or is it still pickled. The below picture is an example of over pickling. No corrosion at all in the engine, but the cylinders were full...

What in the heck is that? Gelled storage oil? Or did they apply grease to the pistons purposefully?

Zzz wrote:What in the heck is that? Gelled storage oil? Or did they apply grease to the pistons purposefully?

It was just oiled over and over again for 25 years and it gelled.

A1Skinner wrote:

Zzz wrote:What in the heck is that? Gelled storage oil? Or did they apply grease to the pistons purposefully?

It was just oiled over and over again for 25 years and it gelled.

Can you imagine the dreams that swelled and were broken time and again over those 25 years?

Looks like Cosmoline?

I just found at that yes the engine was pickled with entries in the logs. Here is a cut and paste from the seller.

1.No pics only log entries.

2. I have owned it almost 3 years, it was not pickled any of the time I have owned it. I have ran it every month since purchasing it. Wings of hope has to store all the planes donated to them for 3 years before they can be sold (IRS regulation on donations) this is why they preserve the engines, they did the work and I had one of there mechanics get it ready enough to ferry back from SUS to DSM when I bought it.

3. The 3 years I have owned it i have always had a hangar for it. I can’t honestly say for the rest.

4. No I have not looked at the cam as there is no easy way to look. I have pulled the screen multiple times and never found any metal.

Honestly this engine is super strong and in extremely good condition in my opinion. It does not leak. I wouldn’t offer to fly it across the mountains if I felt unsure about it.

He has offered to ferry it from IA to CA at my cost of course, but at least he has confidence in the plane to do it. So at least its confirmed it was done and not just take my word for it which is good. He does seem on the up and up with all the conversations we have had.

Marc

How many hrs put on the engine in the last three years? If at least 50 hrs was put on the engine and screen remains clean I would be fairly confident. The thing is engines don't fail from corroded cam/lifters. The engine just slowly develops less power as the cam grinds down over time.

Addicted2climbing wrote:
2. I have owned it almost 3 years, it was not pickled any of the time I have owned it. I have ran it every month since purchasing it.

Marc

It was FLOWN or RUN UP every month for last three years?

Ground runs do nothing but build moisture and corrosion in stored engines.

Kaptain_K wrote:

Addicted2climbing wrote:
2. I have owned it almost 3 years, it was not pickled any of the time I have owned it. I have ran it every month since purchasing it.

Marc

It was FLOWN or RUN UP every month for last three years?

Ground runs do nothing but build moisture and corrosion in stored engines.

X2

Mark Y. wrote:.....The thing is engines don't fail from corroded cam/lifters. The engine just slowly develops less power as the cam grinds down over time.

I disagree.
I know a guy who's (Lycoming) cam & followers were coming apart, unbeknownst to him.
He was flying along one day & noticed oil temp was going up while oil pressure was going down.
Turned out the screen had filled up with debris.
Could have been an in-flight failure if he hadn't been scanning and/or it was a longer flight.

Seems likely the pickling was done right and the engine may have been good 3 years ago. Now it has sat unpickled for 3 years and ground run once a month? That's about the worst thing you can do. Better to have just let it sit. The engine may or may not last, regardless of how it runs now or how much the owner trusts it. To make things worse it sounds like this engine does not have an oil filter. Now any surface corrosion that may have started is in the oil and has been taken everywhere the oil goes...

I don't put too much consideration on TBOs but in some cases it is one of the few metrics available and it if resell matters then your forced to consider TBO. You didn't say when or by who the overhaul was done but since the plane has been in storage for 7 years and there was 350hrs on the engine when it went into storage I'd guess the engine is past TBO by calendar time.

If I were considering this airplane and it had everything else I wanted then there would be some measure of price reduction for the engine. My SWAG: He's asking $49K but an overhaul is going to be $30K so I'd be negotiating in the $35K neighborhood...which isn't likely to buy the airplane especially since the owner is of the opinion that the engine is good to go.

Buying airplanes sucks.

The more I learn the more I lean towards the idea of buying a run out engine. It is just a gamble any other way, and the price rarely reflects this.

Lots of anecdotal stories of engines sitting and then doing fine for a while before making metal.

I just bought a low time non prop strike core that had sat for eight years. Ended up going for a full rebuild. corrosion on cam, crank and all four cylinders. On reflection I might have done better with a prop strike, but you just don't know.

I think plan for it to go bad, and you might just get lucky.

hotrod180 wrote:

Mark Y. wrote:.....The thing is engines don't fail from corroded cam/lifters. The engine just slowly develops less power as the cam grinds down over time.

I disagree.
I know a guy who's (Lycoming) cam & followers were coming apart, unbeknownst to him.
He was flying along one day & noticed oil temp was going up while oil pressure was going down.
Turned out the screen had filled up with debris.
Could have been an in-flight failure if he hadn't been scanning and/or it was a longer flight.

Then oil pump must have been failing and/or because of the plugged cooler, the oil temp went up dropping pressure. Oil cooler and screen both have bypasses. Cooler and screen can be plugged solid and engine will have oil pressure. You can loose prop control though if the governor screen plugs solid. There will be a constant relatively slow shedding of iron from cam/lifter spalling, Your screen won't be clean one flight and packed solid the next. If you check screen/cut filter every 25 hr oil change, cam/lifter spalling will never catch you "unbeknownst". That's what I was referring too.

daedaluscan wrote:The more I learn the more I lean towards the idea of buying a run out engine. It is just a gamble any other way, and the price rarely reflects this.

That’s where I’m at. I’d still run it as long as it was good based on condition but plan (money is in the bank) for engine replacement.

I’m helping shop for a plane and we have one under contract. The engine is unknown but we negotiated the price such that if we have to replace the engine we won’t be upside down on the airplane.

If the seller won’t negotiate then walk. There’s lots of airplanes out there and eventually you’ll find a good one with a reasonable seller.

Whee is spot on. No need to get into the sellers head on this one. Too many unknown issues with the motor. I'd come up with a fair figure you are willing to spend and start there. If you get to a point you are comfortable then buy. If not walk. There is always another deal/plane.

MW