The airline crew can argue that they maintained a far greater distance from the Cirrus than the distance ATC has them separated (on short final) from other airliners who are waiting to take off. Here at Los Angeles International airport, we will have pairs of airliners 500 feet horizontally apart barreling down parallel ILS approaches... about 200 times a day.

Suspending the pilots and controllers in this case is absolute chicken shit.

Interesting Of coarse I'm not sure of the exact details. But wouldn't it make more since to send a slower, smaller, non-jet aircraft to check on the Cirrus? I'm sure there had to have been a turbo prop (like a King-Air) or small jet (like a "Slowtation"). But then again, maybe not at that moment.

You all know me, I think it would be bad ass having a 737 appear off my right or left wing checkin up on me!!

EZFlap wrote:The airline crew can argue that they maintained a far greater distance from the Cirrus than the distance ATC has them separated (on short final) from other airliners who are waiting to take off. Here at Los Angeles International airport, we will have pairs of airliners 500 feet horizontally apart barreling down parallel ILS approaches... about 200 times a day.

Suspending the pilots and controllers in this case is absolute chicken shit.

500 feet horizontal? I don't think so. Better measure again with Google Earth. No airport anywhere is running parallel simuls 500 feet apart. Minimum separation is 1.5 miles diagonally if the runways are at least 2500 feet apart. If the runways are any closer together standard separation(3-6 miles) must be used.

Bonanza Man wrote:
500 feet horizontal? I don't think so. Better measure again with Google Earth. No airport anywhere is running parallel simuls 500 feet apart. Minimum separation is 1.5 miles diagonally if the runways are at least 2500 feet apart. If the runways are any closer together standard separation(3-6 miles) must be used.

Hmmm...better check those numbers again Bonanza

About a month ago, I was doing the visual approach to SFO's 28L with another airbus doing a visual to 28R. It ends up that I joined the LOC just ahead of the other bus. For the rest of the flight down the ILS, we were in formation, with him just off my wing. At one point, we were close enough that it sent off a traffic advisory as well as a resolution advisory. The distance between centerlines is 750'. Take the width of the aircraft into account and the fact that it is easy to be a little left or right of centerline X number of feet, and yeah, it was CLOSE! Would have made a great picture. The difference between the two being that SFO does this all the time, but LAX will typically land on 24R/25L and takeoff from 24L/25R.

So yeah, approaches that close between aircraft do happen in visual conditions. I'm guessing the separation numbers you wrote down were for actual instrument conditions in IMC.

Thanks for the visual aids, Lowflybye! Yup, it looked pretty much like that. Had I not been flying and inside the marker, I'd have my own visual aids to share.

Grassstrippilot wrote:So yeah, approaches that close between aircraft do happen in visual conditions. I'm guessing the separation numbers you wrote down were for actual instrument conditions in IMC.

Pretty sure they can run parallell simultatanious approaches in IMC provided both aircraft on operating on the ILS approach...if the ball is centered the seperation is the same.

Go into Google Maps, and type in LAX.

There are four runways at LAX, two parallel on the north side, two parallel on the south side. It sure looks a lot closer than 1.5 miles. And there is no diagonal... airplanes come down the chute line abreast. At night sometimes you can see rows of them extending 40 miles east. They are certainly a mile or two ahead or behind each other, but often they're wingtip to wingtip as far as distance from the threshold.

Now I'm not nearly remotely not no way an airline pilot, and my only type rating is in a BC-12D. So I'll leave the high-tech details to the jet jockeys. But I know what I've seen for 49+ years living here watching the airliners come down the chute into LAX.

I'm so old that sometimes my memory is in black and white.

lowflybye wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:
500 feet horizontal? I don't think so. Better measure again with Google Earth. No airport anywhere is running parallel simuls 500 feet apart. Minimum separation is 1.5 miles diagonally if the runways are at least 2500 feet apart. If the runways are any closer together standard separation(3-6 miles) must be used.

Hmmm...better check those numbers again Bonanza

AIM part 5-4-16
2. SOIA is an acronym for Simultaneous Offset Instrument Approach, a procedure used to conduct simultaneous approaches to runways spaced less than 3,000 feet, but at least 750 feet apart. The SOIA procedure utilizes an ILS/PRM approach to one runway and an offset Localizer Type Directional Aid (LDA)/PRM approach with glide slope to the adjacent runway

Anyone find authorization for anything closer. Bonanza look like you right on the 500 part but it can be done down to 750'

Rooster Cogburn wrote:http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20110330-faa-controller-southwest-airlines-pilots-suspended-after-flying-too-close-to-another-airplane.ece

After reading this I couldn't help but wonder if I'd risk my career to help a possible life thwarting situation or would I say that other pilots life is someone else's problem?

lowflybye wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:So yeah, approaches that close between aircraft do happen in visual conditions. I'm guessing the separation numbers you wrote down were for actual instrument conditions in IMC.

Pretty sure they can run parallell simultatanious approaches in IMC provided both aircraft on operating on the ILS approach...if the ball is centered the seperation is the same.

Yeah, they can run parallel approaches, but the aircraft will be staggered...not abeam each other when it is IMC. Otherwise, it is a visual approach and that is when you see aircraft abeam each other like in the video.

SOIA is also another different type of animal with additional requirements, i.e. monitoring a second frequency, breakout procedures, special crew training, etc. It is an ILS/LDA combo where, once again, the aircraft are staggered and, inside the MAP for the aircraft on the LDA, it is a visual procedure since you are required to have the proceeding aircraft on the ILS in sight.

LAX's parallel runways are definitely less than 1.5 miles, but I couldn't find the exact distance published anywhere. They just have the luxury of more room to allow one to be designated as a takeoff runway and one as a landing runway on each complex. Of course, that isn't to say they don't use both for landing since the plates say right on them that simultaneous approaches are authorized. But once again, in IMC, they'd be staggered.

LAX's parallel runways are definitely less than 1.5 miles, but I couldn't find the exact distance published anywhere.

I just measured them on Google Earth I saw 24L & 24R at 700' center line to center, then I measured a 747 on the ramp at 263' tip to tip. So if the both of them were coming down the chute side by side they would be 437' tip to tip apart when they touched down. Runways 25L & R are 100' wider. God forbid they ground loop towards each other upon touch down

Out of the Pilot Controller Glossary:

PARALLEL ILS APPROACHES− Approaches to
parallel runways by IFR aircraft which, when
established inbound toward the airport on the
adjacent final approach courses, are radar-separated
by at least 2 miles.
(See FINAL APPROACH COURSE.)
(See SIMULTANEOUS ILS APPROACHES.)

SIMULTANEOUS ILS APPROACHES− An approach system permitting simultaneous ILS/MLS
approaches to airports having parallel runways
separated by at least 4,300 feet between centerlines.
Integral parts of a total system are ILS/MLS, radar,
communications, ATC procedures, and appropriate
airborne equipment.
(See PARALLEL RUNWAYS.)
(Refer to AIM.)


IMO There is a big difference from separation on an approach when you have precision guidance and aircraft/aircrew authorization/training/approval vs. enroute operations. there is special Radar monitoring required and break-out procedures.

I still think it sucks these guys got in trouble for trying to help out.....

Yeah...

...SFO can be a real blast. Visual approaches and one often gets very close to the other as stated by glassstrippilot. SFO approach will often simply say..."Keep the traffic in sight." That's it.

As for the SWA guys and the Cirrus. It is pure BS to try to penalize anyone. Personally I don't see a damned thing wrong with what they did. Letting the Cirrus scoot along without radio contact could be even more dangerous.

In this crazy world of terrorism....I suspect the controller was a bit concerned about their intentions. IMHO the SWA pilots were doing a public safety service by taking a "look see."

Our society has become so chicken shit. At my age I can honestly say....."I lived through the good old days."

Bob

So, a couple of hours ago I was on final into LAX and thought to ask the controller what the distance is between 24L/R. She said she believed it was 700'. Anyway, close like SFO, but as usual, they were landing on the outboards and taking off on the inboards.

LAX 24L-24R 700' between / 25L-25R 800' between / 24L-25R 4500' between / 24R-25L 6000' between / Threshold offset between 24L/R and 25L/R is 5000'. The standard landing configuration at LAX is 24R and 25L with departures operating from the inboards 24L and 25R.