I just found out about the PA-16 today and I think I fell in love. I was searching info on PA-20's and ran across some info about the clipper. I have this obsession with stick controls...or maybe it's that I don't like yokes but I love the idea of having a roomier plane and still having stick controls.

Anybody know anything about these planes? I was thinking about getting a pacer in the future but if the clipper is comparable in performance then that's the way I'd go.

Buying another plane is not in the near future but I like to look ahead and have an idea what I will want.

Jon

There were actually only a few "Clippers" built. Pan Am sued (or threatened to sue) Piper for copyright infringement on the Clipper name.

They then became the Vagabond, I believe.

One of the BIG differences between these airplanes and a Pacer is that the Pacers (at least most of them) had bigger engines. Also many more mods available for Pacers, and very few for Clippers.

Otherwise, its a short wing Piper, with a pretty low gross weight.

MTV

I got my tailwheel endorsement in one. It was made for only one year, I think. 150hp, I think, no flaps. Didn't need any. Pull the power off and it came down, glide ratio of a coke machine, but I was surprised at how much performance it had. I think it had three seats?

Here is what I have gathered so far.

115 hp
4 seat
no flaps
1650 gross

Trimmer aviation hoping for a 180 hp stc. they have a stc for adding a left door.

Found some that had flaps added.

Descriptions were that is is a stretched Vagabond.

I'd like to fly one to see what they are like...I'd like to fly a Pacer also so I could do a rough comparison.

Jon

It's not really a 4 seater, I heard it said that one will carry 2 and1/2 to three . The 115 horse is the 0-235, which I think has a long overhaul interval. I don't think it needs flaps.

a64pilot wrote:I heard it said that one will carry 2 and1/2 to three

I read that too, I figured that would be alright because I'd just use the extra room to haul gear.

This may be a dumb question but if the Clipper doesn't need flaps then why does the Pacer? Wouldn't the flaps help on takeoff?

Jon

That 180 hp option would be nice. I owned, for a short while, a pa 22/20 with a O-360 180 hp, what a rocket ship! If I wasn't 6'5", I would have kept it.

PA-15 Vagabond came first, 2 place, 65 horse Connie, short wing,no flaps, rigid gear. PA-16 Clipper, 100 or 115 horse O-235, 4 seats,short wing, no flaps. PA-17 was an improved vagabond, mainly by adding bungee suspension. PA-16 was made in 1949 only, they came out with the PA-20 Pacer in 1950, like a Clipper but with yokes instead of sticks, flaps, and a 125-horse O-290-D Lycoming. Later improved with the 290-D2 135-horse engine, not sure if the PA-20 ever came with the 320. Lots of 320-powered PA-22/20's (tailwheel-converted TriPacer) though.
A friend of mine has a pretty nice PA-16 Clipper for sale, fitted with an O-290-D2. Pretty nice little airplane, good 2 + 2 type airplane. I think he wants $21K-ish for it. Email or PM me for his contact info.

Eric

whee wrote:Wouldn't the flaps help on takeoff?

Jon

I don't know, I think it depends on HP. The one I got my check out in, was I'm pretty sure a 150 horse and it wasn't a ground lover, but it flew on power. I don't know how much weight flaps would add and I want to think it had a bench seat? I know it had one seat belt, that seemed odd to me. Anyway if it had a bench seat then you would have to have some kind of split seat to have a flap handle. I guess my thoughts are if you want flaps buy an airplane with them or you will spend far too much time and money on it adding flaps.

Putting a $35,000 engine into a $10,000 airframe, then adding very expensive flaps will leave you much poorer, and with a stick control Pacer, still a short wing airplane, with all that implies.

It would make a LOT more sense to spend the same amount of money on something else, frankly.

Adding flaps is a big deal, changing engines will take your breath away, cost-wise.

Its fun to dream, but if you're thinking about all that stuff, you may want to think experimental, and build a Producer.

MTV

One of the Stewarts has a clipper...they'd be the ones I'd do some talking to. You can find them at Stewart's Hangar, or Aircraftfinishing.
JH

I had a PA22/20-150 and have flown a Clipper and now have a Vagabond.
I think they are all great. The Clipper has the nearly full span ailerons of the Vagabond so flaps are not a option. Very nice flying airplane with a quick roll rate. I think the Clipper is a great two place airplane with baggage. Talk to Steve Pierce, at Pierce Aero,or his dad about Clippers, they both have one.

Yeah, Dan Stewart has a beautiful Clipper, fitted with a 320. They do a lot of shortwing Piper work. Plus they have their own proprietary fabric-finishing system now. They're in Cashmere WA.

Eric

I seem to remember that Eddie Trimmer was working on or had worked on a STC for a stick controlled Pacer. That was a couple years ago and I haven't heard anything since. There have been a number of one-time STCs also. With the two control sticks and flap lever sticking up like a little forest in the middle of the cockpit I would think a left hand door would almost be a requirement.

In case you haven’t found it yet, Andy Anderson's website is a repository for all things technical and Short Wing. http://home.earthlink.net/~andy2220/index.html

The Clipper is a good airplane Jon. I owned/flew one for several years. The stock Clipper (PA-16) is a 4 seat AC with a Lyc. O-235 rated at 108 HP. Unmodified, they had a nose tank that held 12 gallons, and one wing tank in the left wing that held 18 gallons. The O-235 burned 6GPH.

They perform like a little fighter plane with a light fuel load and only 1 or two people, off the ground quick, and a great rate of climb. Cruise around 105 MPH. I've flown with 4 people, but it's a little heavy.

They don't need flaps. Chop the power and put it in a slip and you will have all the decent you can handle.

The PA-16 was made in 1949 and 1950, when the Pacer came out with yoke controls, wing tanks, and larger engines.

Ernie