If I've read it once on BCP, I've read it a thousand times: practice slow flight. I have to admit, when I do slow flight, after a few minutes I think, "ok, now what?" It doesn't seem like anything has happened to make me better.

What do you do when you go out to practice slow flight? Hold altitude with the horn blaring and the engine overheating? Sink at 500 fpm with the horn blaring? Sink in the buffet? Turn in the buffet?

And what are the criteria to use when you evaluate your performance?

How does what you do at 3000 AGL correspond to what happens at 3 AGL?

Slow flight in all configurations, stalls in all configurations, turns at slow flight.
Practice approaches from slow flight, check the power setting that works best for the slower approach, try to stall it while practicing those slow approaches,(pull the nose, practice mistakes) remember the nose attitude of the plane where it wont stall on those slow approaches at that power setting.
Steep turns on slow approaches (nose down).

Then after lots of practice you know it is safe approaching slow with the stall warning going off, you get comfortable at slow speeds, you get a feel for the airplane when practicing slow flight.

Is operating at true "minimum controllable airspeed" really a good idea in real life situations?
I'd say that's what got that 140 in trouble recently.
I'd say MCA + a margin-- what I call maneuvering speed or pattern speed.

Stu,

I practice slow flight and like knowing how the plane performs with increased AOA from mushy controls, to the horn sounding, to buffeting, and then breaking. I also like to know how much error is present at the low end of ASI. The Skywagon has an incredible amount of indicated to calibrated airspeed error. My 180 will break with an indicated airspeed of 26 mph - Full flaps. This does not mean my airplane will stall at 26 mph groundspeed. I usually feel the buffet around 32 mph. My horn comes on around 45-50 mph. This at least gives me an idea of how slow I can get the airplane within a margin of safety and how the plane feels as I get her slowed down to the buffet and ultimately to the break/stall. I usually try to maintain level altitude during the practice because it demonstrates the power curve relationship best. I also practice the procedure in a 500 FPM decent similar to landing configuration. Also good to practice turns in slow flight and ok to even let it stall during the turn to practice the recovery. I think having an awareness of how the airplane feels from the start of the horn - to the buffet, and then breaking is extremely helpful. There is a lot going on when the airplane is flying slow and being able to feel characteristics of the wing stall is so important for preventing a stall/spin accident. The airplane will feel different when you do your STOL landings and have ground effect but flying the airplane at altitude on the envelope is the best way to practice and understand the wing.

As for the engine cooling. I guess this could be a problem if you practiced this maneuver for longer than about 15-20 min. I had some engine cooling issues once trying to stay in formation with an 85 hp cub but we were flying for a long time. I would just watch the temperatures and practice it in the early mornings.


Josh

hotrod180 wrote:Is operating at true "minimum controllable airspeed" really a good idea in real life situations?
I'd say that's what got that 140 in trouble recently.
I'd say MCA + a margin-- what I call maneuvering speed or pattern speed.

The point of the MCA demo at altitude is to ingrain into your senses what the airplane FEELS like, the messages it’s transmitting to you at the edge of the safe flight envelope, so that you can recognize them better when close to the ground.

The point is NOT so you can fly approaches on that fine edge.

There will always be distractions in flying. Having a good feel for the airplane near MCA can be a life saver.

For a number of years I flew airplanes that can exhibit a pretty harsh break in the stall, when pushed hard. Working off airport unimproved sites, it’s essential to have a good feel as to when you’re getting a wee bit slow.

MTV

Many years ago I had a flight review with a Military Flight Instructor in my Cherokee 180. I had about 150 hours total time. He Asked me what I wanted to learn during the review. I told him I was afraid to slow the airplane down. My home airport runway...Lexington Oregon...was undergoing some upgrade construction and the landing portion was shortened to1800 feet. It was marginal for my skill level at that time.

HE had me do slow flight for about an hour. He wanted me to fly level with the stall warning on. On the Cherokee the stall warning was a red light on the panel. I don't remember any heating problems. At the end of the flight he had me fly over to Pendleton. We were at pattern altitude approaching the runway when he told me to land straight ahead. I replied that I didn't think I could get down quick enough to do that. He said "You know this airplane will fly just fine slow". I slowed down and landed.

Of all the things I learned during flight reviews the next 30 years, that is the most memorable.

Dog is my Copilot wrote:...My 180 will break with an indicated airspeed of 26 mph - Full flaps.

Josh,

I know you've been around the barn a bit and know u know that bird, but I'm wondering about this... 26? I've flown quite a bit of wagons and dont seem to see em fly that slow.

One of the things I've been doing on most of my customer birds is sending the AI out for overhaul. As most have never been touched in the 50-70 years since new, knowing whats what seems to be handy. That said, I realize that the AI is almost useless at snail speed, but its good to trust the indications.

Stock wagons break much faster, and w/ VGs and a Sportsman, I usually expect 36-40 ish outside of ground effect. Curious as to how you feel the AI is reading?

Greg-

Bigrenna wrote:

Dog is my Copilot wrote:...My 180 will break with an indicated airspeed of 26 mph - Full flaps.

Josh,

I know you've been around the barn a bit and know u know that bird, but I'm wondering about this... 26? I've flown quite a bit of wagons and dont seem to see em fly that slow.

One of the things I've been doing on most of my customer birds is sending the AI out for overhaul. As most have never been touched in the 50-70 years since new, knowing whats what seems to be handy. That said, I realize that the AI is almost useless at snail speed, but its good to trust the indications.

Stock wagons break much faster, and w/ VGs and a Sportsman, I usually expect 36-40 ish outside of ground effect. Curious as to how you feel the AI is reading?

Greg-

Greg,

So pre-glass panel with old analog gauges I would see a 40 flap stall break around 32-33ish. After they put in the new panel, - it was reading 26-27 mph - not sure why. I have a Sportsman Cuff but no other wing mods. I have been doing the slow flight - stall practice with a lot of students and have only seen one plane show a slower indicated airspeed during the break of the stall. That plane is a tailwheel converted 175 with on O-360. It has a Horton cuff. It basically reads near zero when it breaks. I have flown a few other stock 180/182/185s without cuffs and I agree they break near 35-40 mph. I am guessing my airplane is breaking at a similar calibrated airspeed to these other airplanes - likely a little slower due to the Sportsman cuff.

My opinion of the ASI - is it relative gauge and at low speed basically worthless for accuracy. It is helpful to mark the relative positions of the horn, buffet, and break of the stall and gives a rough idea how much buffer there is when flying slow. I sure wish it could fly 26 mph - would make it one safe airplane. Learning Vs and Vso indicated airspeeds teaches nothing about the airplane. Just a published number that has no practical applications.

Josh

StuBob, the main thing we learn from slow flight is how effective rudder only is for bringing a wing back up and for keeping the wing level. At the same time we learn how ineffective the aileron is and that it will slow (it yaws the down wing back more) bringing the wing up smartly. We need to learn that coordinated aileron and rudder is much sloppier than just using the rudder. We learn that if we walk the rudder rapidly dynamically and proactively, we keep the wing level. We learn that if we nail the target (not heading which is too inaccurate) with dynamic proactive rudder while not touching the ailerons, the wing automatically stays level. Gust spread wing level disruption is automatically dealt with. Gust spread balloon and sink must by dealt with by using the throttle as a dynamic control.

For landing, we also should practice hover taxi. This is flying down the runway with full flaps and power in low ground effect as slow as the airplane will fly in low (not high) ground effect. This is the airspeed of landing. Vso or any other airspeed well above this much slower airspeed will prevent the airplane from landing properly and cause bounce. When strong headwind component keeps airspeed above this landing airspeed, even at zero ground speed, we have to carefully protect the nose gear while using very little pitch up in the flair. Tailwheel airplanes can use more forward elevator to stay planted but have more problem taxiing.

A lot of the STOL guys use Patrick's and Cub Crafters' just above Vso stall down technique all the way down short final. Using the apparent rate of closure that Wolfgang and I teach causes deceleration on short final coming into ground effect. I don't know what technique the Zenith and the C-140 were using, but in gusty conditions the near Vso airspeed well back on the approach and out of ground effect does not work well without a really busy throttle. Nor is it as safe as either dragging it in (actually this is hover taxi up to the numbers) or the apparent brisk walk rate of closure which causes deceleration on short final when the numbers appear to close faster than a brisk walk causing the pilot to decelerate.

Slow flight is good... it's where we all start.

It's really good for a path leading to an instrument world. After all, in that realm, there are expectations for your speed, heading, and altitude. And practicing slow flight helps all of these.

Energy management is a better tool to practice for the vast majority of what I would define as backcountry flying. It is also a better tool for stol ops that may not necessarily be 'backcountry'.

Why do I think this? Because in these realms, none of the requirements for instrument flight exist. All that really matters is that you stay in one piece. After all, most of these ops are for fun, and bending things is generally not fun.

My definition of energy management is slightly different than Mr. Contact's, although it does encompass his.
His instruction of energy management is all about the pitch/power/speed control of an approach. And of course, rudder control for the yaw axis.

My definition of energy management is managing anything that influences your direction of movement, on ground or air, with sole reference to sight, feel, touch, taste, or smell.

This is not Ninja Jedi stuff... you don't have any indicators to walk, run, ride a bike, ski, or swim. Oddly enough, we can do all these activities, even in the pitch black night. Those all move three-dimensional, just the same as flying (albiet slower).

I also prefer this type of flight management because it does not rely on an electrical or mechanical instrument that can fail. The only failure mode here is your health.

With this type of flight management, you are just looking for the 'tool' to address a requirement. And just like instrument flight, there will be primary tools, and back up tools. Flying like this will have you poised to move to a back up, when the primary fails.

And lastly I prefer this form of flight management because it is more current information than what you see on a dial. Everything you see on a dial is history. Yes, some of that may have only been a nano second ago, but if it was 'indicated' that means it was measured, (read; history!) An instrument does not tell you what is happening right now, or what is about to happen. About to fly through a dust devil? (wind shear) the instruments will tell you all about it...
Right after your wing drops...
Bit off a bigger load than you thought? The instrument will remind you... just as you wallow out of ground effect...

There are folks like the moto adventure man who will tell you how wonderful his aoa is... I'm cool with that. Either it is teaching him energy management, or indicator dependency. I don't know him, so can't say which. But I can say if he doesn't ignore the sights feels, smells and sounds, the tool will make itself obsolete in short order. This is not an F35... it is a freaking Cessna.

Now I'm not suggesting by learning energy management you will be a forecaster, what I'm saying is that by removing the indicator dependency, you will already be that nano second ahead in the decision making process, and you will be bracketing for that feel, so you will likely already be poised to the correction.

By my definition of energy management, you should have mastered throttle control. Use that friction lock when you have to pee or do a crossword puzzle. If your throttle isn't actively participating in your landing, you are not controlling that energy; it is controlling you by setting a parameter that you must fly in.

Turns? Control their energy. Ever see a pylon racer slide out and eat the pylon.... fail...
Why should this matter to you? Because all these hyped up 'canyon turns' don't matter a lick if you have no idea what kind of turn you can squeeze out of it when all heck breaks loose..
That's what happened to get you there, right? Shit got skinny, and now you have to do some of that fancy pilot shit. Why else does that matter? Because when your stacked up on approach slower than you should be, and decide to bail, you need to be able to discern what the vortices you just flew through is going to feed you, and how to solve that. An indicator is not going to give you that information.

Energy management is knowing not to rotate in to Vx, y or g, when you bit off a real big load... I'm talking the kind of load that won't let you clean up the flaps without settling, but won't let you speed up as fast as you'd like because of the flap drag... This is a crappy place to be. Try and rotate to climb here, and you will land (unintentionally) off the end of the strip, or worse yet stall and spin from 60'-100'.

Your ASI will be of no use here. Your butt, ears, and eyes will save your bacon.

Think this is melodramatic sensationalism? Last year, a brand new AT802 settled into the corn, jumping a hog confinement. Pilot was a very experienced driver but new to planes of that size. LOTS of energy to manage there...

Laugh, if you will, but I don't know a single aggie who hasn't rounded out into a field at some point, wondering if this wouldn't turn into an unplanned landing.

I have often surmised the best ag pilot candidate would be one that has a descent amount of glider time, and a descent amount of tug time in something like banner ops. Energy management from opposite sides of the spectrum.

As stated before, I am not an instructor... The only instruction I can give is to those in our operation, and that is a completely different environment. So take my advice for what you paid for it. I'm also not going to preach on how to learn how to harness that energy on an open forum. There are instructors that specialize in this. Both gliders and aerobatics depend on it.

I know what I expect out of my pilots, both at work and in our household, and slow flight would be somewhere along the student pilot phase...

Take care, Rob

I often try to enlist the help of instructors in the preaching and teaching of safe maneuvering flight techniques. That does not exclude Rob and other teachers of flying even though he claims not to be an instructor. The FAA, in Part 137, actually considers him to be the designated pilot examiner of Ag pilots for his operation.

Anyway us energy management teachers have got to stick together. The V speeds guys are useful in the V speeds environment, but we all have to manage energy to go fast to get up and to go slow to get down.

Thanks Rob, teacher extraordinaire.

I can't remember the last time I looked at the ASI on short final, and I have never (other than in training years ago) flown a plane with a stall horn. I fly by how the stick feels, I guess that's seat of the pants flying?

Once I entered the pattern to land behind a student in a retractable doing stop and gos. They usually sit on the runway a while before taking off again. To talk about it I guess.

Anyhow, I figured no big deal I'll just pull the speed back to about 40 mph and hang on down wind while they decide to take off. I glanced at the ASI when the kitfox started to feel like about 45 mph but it said 73. It didn't sink in to me that the ASI needle was stuck so I kept slowing down until I felt the stall buffet.

This time I was glad those guys were in front of me. I got out of the pattern to sort it out. When I would speed up the needle would go above 70 but when I slowed down it would stop at 70.

Here's a picture. It took me a while to see the problem. How long do you have to stare at it before you see what's causing the needle to stick at 70.

Little calibration screw or whatever is jamming the needle. I started in days of Ag when they cut the pitot tube off when they put new fabric on the wing. Most Pawnee and CallAir I flew had no airspeed indicator. If you fussed, they would wonder what you were doing in Ag.

tcj wrote:Once I entered the pattern to land behind a student in a retractable doing stop and gos. They usually sit on the runway a while before taking off again. To talk about it I guess.

Anyhow, I figured no big deal I'll just pull the speed back to about 40 mph and hang on down wind while they decide to take off. I glanced at the ASI when the kitfox started to feel like about 45 mph but it said 73. It didn't sink in to me that the ASI needle was stuck so I kept slowing down until I felt the stall buffet.

This time I was glad those guys were in front of me. I got out of the pattern to sort it out. When I would speed up the needle would go above 70 but when I slowed down it would stop at 70.

Here's a picture. It took me a while to see the problem. How long do you have to stare at it before you see what's causing the needle to stick at 70.

Bingo

courierguy wrote:I can't remember the last time I looked at the ASI on short final, and I have never (other than in training years ago) flown a plane with a stall horn. I fly by how the stick feels, I guess that's seat of the pants flying?

You are an old hang glider pilot. That doesn't happen without learning energy management

Lots of stuff to comment on with this one. First when slow indicated airspeed is pretty much only useful for the aircraft the ASI is in. It is just a number that may or may not (usually not) correspond to the true speed of the aircraft. Comparing the indicated stall airspeed to any other aircraft us useless! Use it for that aircraft only.
Slow flight is done to give you a ideal of how your plane will react in a given situation. Repeated slow flight is done to train your mind and body to react without having to think about the action. It is not a one time and we are done thing. Best to do it for 5 - 10 min every few weeks until you no longer have to think about it just let your body react. Just like downhill skiing, bike riding, ect. You should be well ahead of the plane let you reflexes take care of the moment. But to do this they need training and exercise. A word of caution make sure you are training properly!! Training reflex throttle chop with flap dump can be done on the ground. You will know you have it right when you don't remember doing it after you land.
The sticking ASI bit me a while back. I was helping fly a cub to Alaska a year ago. New to me working cub with cruise prop. On short final noticed I was coming in kind of hot 60 mph, so worked hard to slow down and my landing sucked. The pilot in the back seat mentioned that he thought I had some pilot good skills but was apparently he was wrong and I agreed. When his turn up front came landing was as bad as mine, I also noted something about his skills. This went on all the way to Alaska. I had the last two hour flight to home, on climb out I looked down and saw my airspeed was 40 mph!! I pushed the nose down then the needle let go and it jumped to 70 mph. The light bulb came on and when I landed at home I just set the plane up like I do mine, ignored the ASI, and lo and behold I was back to being a pilot with skills.
DENNY